by authorizing the Federal Communications Commission to issue radio station licenses in these cases.

The Board recommends the adoption of such an amendment. Accordingly, while the Board endorses both H. R. 8543 and H. R. 6886, it prefers H. R. 8543 in view of its more complete coverage.

I add there, sir, the Bureau of the Budget has advised that there is no objection to the submission of the foregoing statement for consideration of the Congress.

Mr. ROGERS. Thank you, Mr. Duncan, for a very concise and clear statement.

Do you have any questions, Mr. Younger?

Mr. YOUNGER. None.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Duncan, what is the situation right now with relation to the operation of these radios when foreign passenger aircraft come into this country?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, that is covered by international agreement. We have no trouble with the established airlines. There is no difficulty whatever.

Now, in the case of an aircraft that is not on regular schedule, a prearrangement is made just the same as we make a prearrangement for trips to foreign countries.

Mr. ROGERS. The radio operator on those planes does not have a United States certificate?

Mr. DUNCAN. No.

Mr. ROGERS. Of course, the same is true insofar as we are concerned in foreign countries?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS. That is all handled through agreement?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Duncan, you may be able to clear up something here that will help us out. Your statement did not include anything with regard to the security matters that I was asking the representatives of the CAA about.

Are you prepared at this time to make any statement on that, or would you prefer to furnish a statement?

Mr. DUNCAN. I have not, sir, but may I call on Mr. Wanner of the Legal Department of CAB, who may be able to contribute an answer to that question?

Mr. ROGERS. Is Mr. Wanner here?

Mr. Wanner, if you will identify yourself, please.

STATEMENT OF JOHN WANNER, GENERAL COUNSEL'S OFFICE, CIVIL AERONAUTICS BOARD

Mr. WANNER. My name is John Wanner. I am with the General Counsel's Office of the Board.

We are not in a position to make any statement on behalf of the board with respect to the security aspects. However, we will be glad to look into that and furnish a supplemental statement.

Mr. ROGERS. Could you give us any idea now, Mr. Wanner, as to the procedure presently used?

Mr. WANNER. I was going to suggest that the committee consider in connection with this security problem, the fact that title XII of

the Civil Aeronautics Act, which covers security matters and was added by amendment several years ago, should be sufficient to cover the security aspects of this problem so that no additional language in the bill is necessary.

That would seem to follow from the thought that the committee has in mind in the provisions of title XII.

However, I think it would be desirable if we check that further and furnish a supplemental statement.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Wanner, does title XII vest a discretionary power in the CAA or does it require that certain things be done?

Mr. WANNER. It would require implementation by security order and by regulations; that is correct, but the statutory basis or framework would seem to be encompassed within title XII.

Mr. ROGERS. Do you have any questions on that subject, Mr. Younger?

Mr. YOUNGER. The only thing that appeals to me is that if a license to operate the plane is issued, I see no added hazard to allow the pilot to operate the radio.

In other words, if a man can fly over an installation of the Government and make all the notes he wants and take all the pictures he wants, it certainly is not going to add anything to his abality to infringe on any rights if he wants to talk back and tell somebody what he is doing.

I cannot see that operating a radio is going to add or detract on the question of security.

Mr. WANNER. That is probably correct. That is why I prefer title XII since that is a general provision which would enable regulations to be adopted also with respect to pilots, for example, in case of need. Mr. YOUNGER. My theory is that if it is a matter of security, then he should not be granted the license to fly the plane.

Mr. WANNER. That might be the regulation adopted under title XII.

Mr. YOUNGER. That is my feeling. If you give him the right to fly the plane then you have passed the security question.

The security question no longer exists on the point of whether he operates the radio, or not.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Wanner, would you not get into the question there of where he operates the plane we have the right to see that he does not have the ability to communicate with anyone on the ground or anyplace else.

I think that would be the serious question involved.

Mr. WANNER. That is a possibility.

Mr. YOUNGER. He can make all the notes he wants, take all the pictures he wants.

Mr. ROGERS. But he would have no way to communicate with the ground unless he got his plane down. I think it is a very serious question. I think it is one we ought to have cleared up because we will be asked some questions about it, I am sure, when this matter comes up for final consideration.

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. WANNER. One minor point:

We note in the reading of our statement that the statement by typographical error refers to amendment of section 303 (b). It should

have said 303 (1) in the prepared statement. That is on the middle of the second page.

(The following letter was later received from the Civil Aeronautics Board :)

Hon. OREN HARRIS,

CIVIL AERONAUTICS BOARD,
Washington, May 1, 1958.

Chairman, Subcommittee on Transportation and Communications,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN HARRIS: During the hearings before your committee in connection with H. R. 8453 and H. R. 6886, certain questions were raised as to whether aliens who would operate aircraft under the proposed legislation might present a security problem, and whether the bills should be amended to make appropriate provision with respect thereto. The Board's representatives who were present at the hearing stated that they were not authorized to make a statement of the Board's position on this matter, but offered to supplement the record in this respect.

The present title XII of the Civil Aeronautics Act, when implemented by Executive order, would provide the Board with appropriate authority for the formulation of regulations dealing with the security clearance of all airmen, including those encompassed within the provisions of H. R. 8453 and H. R. 6886. However, the Board at the present time has no special knowledge of security conditions or requirements and therefore is unable to offer any suggestions or recommendations with respect to the need for legislation in this regard in addition to title XII of the Civil Aeronautics Act.

Sincerely yours,

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Curtis B. Plummer.

JAMES R. DURFEE, Chairman.

If you will identify yourself, please, for the purpose of the record, you may proceed.

STATEMENT OF CURTIS B. PLUMMER, CHIEF, SAFETY AND SPECIAL RADIO SERVICES BUREAU, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

Mr. PLUMMER. My name is Curtis B. Plummer. I am Chief of Safety and Special Radio Services Bureau of the Federal Communications Commission.

I have been authorized to appear regarding the 2 bills which are being considered today by the committee, H. R. 8543 and H. R. 6886. H. R. 8543, a bill introduced July 5, 1957, by Representative Mack, which permits the FCC to issue, to noncitizens of the United States, operator licenses confined to aircraft and licenses for radio stations aboard aircraft.

H. R. 6886 is a bill introduced April 15, 1957, by Representative Engle, to issue operator licenses, to noncitizens, confined to aviation. The Commission has heretofore submitted its comments on each of these bills.

The Commission's comments on these bills are contained in letters to the Speaker of the House dated April 9, 1958, and April 12, 1958. I understand you have already made those letters a part of this record and we believe our comments are largely self-explanatory and the witnesses that have preceded me, I believe, have covered the field very well.

Therefore, I am open for questions or anything that you desire.
Mr. ROGERS. Thank you, Mr. Plummer.

Do you have any questions?

Mr. YOUNGER. No.

Mr. ROGERS. Mr. Plummer, could you give us any enlightenment on the security question we have been talking about?

Mr. PLUMMER. The position of our Commission is that we feel that if the CAA has satisfied itself as to the security problem of the individual applying for the pilot's certificate, and subsequently issues such an individual pilot's certificate the Commission may then issue a license for the operator or the station to that pilot.

We believe the bill is written that the prerequisite to getting the license from us is having a pilot's license.

Therefore, we believe that the CAA would take the necessary security measures before the issue of that pilot's license.

We also believe that it would be undesirable to go over the security of the same man twice in two different agencies. We believe it would cover largely the same area.

Therefore, our position is that if he is cleared by CAA, it will be sufficient for us.

Mr. ROGERS. You mean by that that if something should turn up where a Communist got hold of a radio in an airplane, you would say, "Well, the CAA did that; we didn't do it."?

Mr. PLUMMER. Well, I think as an operations matter, we would have to get together with them on this security clearance, but we do not believe it should be done twice.

Mr. ROGERS. Do you not think, Mr. Plummer, it is better to do it twice than it is to make a mistake? The point Mr. Younger made was an excellent point in regard to issuing a pilot's license, but human beings make mistakes and I can appreciate a situation where a man could have been granted a pilot's license and he may be gathering information and we may find out about it and we may be able to shoot him down and stop him before he gets that transmitted to his folks who may be offensive to the United States.

Mr. PLUMMER. I agree with you, that could happen, and we have the power to look into it if we wished under our public interest, convenience and necessity clause of our act and the proviso in this bill.

So, therefore, if something did come up that we knew about, we could look into it independently.

Mr. ROGERS. Do you at the present time go into the security aspect of applicants very deeply?

Mr. PLUMMER. They are required to be citizens under our act, but beyond that when they say they are citizens and give some proof in some cases we do not go any deeper than that.

Mr. ROGERS. That is the point. There is no need under your present procedures to do that and should it be put into this act by amendment, certain security requirements must be met by the applicants, it would necessitate FCC setting up some kind of apparatus or division to do that work, would it not?

Mr. PLUMMER. Yes, it would, and broadly speaking, we would have so little of that I have a question about setting up a whole unit to do it. We have problems along that line now when we look into character qualifications of applicants occasionally.

The volume is so small we largely depend on the Department of Justice to do that work for us.

Mr. ROGERS. That is where you get the information, from the Department of Justice?

Mr. PLUMMER. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS. Of course, that same avenue could be used in making these determinations; could it not?

Mr. PLUMMER. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Younger? Mr. YOUNGER. No.

Mr. ROGERS. Thank you very much, Mr. Plummer, for your testimony.

Now, I believe that concludes all the witnesses that I have listed. However, we do have Mr. Max Karant, Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association.

You will be recognized, Mr. Karant, for a statement. If you will identify yourself, please, for the record."

STATEMENT OF MAX KARANT, VICE PRESIDENT, AIRCRAFT OWNERS & PILOTS ASSOCIATION

Mr. KARANT. My name is Max Karant. I am vice president of the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association. I am the only one here from the point of view of the user, the person who is affected by all this.

Let me tell you a little bit about our organization. We are very much like the motor club. We are the motor club of the air. At the present time we have about 70,000 members. About 75 percent of these own their own aircraft. We have a fairly substantial percentage of members outside the continental United States; in other words, who are foreign nationalists, and we have supported this philosophy that is expressed in these bills for a long time, because we regard the present rule which forbids foreign nationalists from transmitting on radio as being wholly unnecessary.

Now, in addition to being a United States organization concerned with operations inside continental United States, we are very seriously concerned with anything that has to do with international operations because a substantial percentage of our members who are United States citizens move throughout the world quite a bit in their own aircraft.

We are very sensitive to anything that might make other countries feel unhappy with us.

So we do have a very strong international interest and also we have these members of ours who come to the United States frequently who are not United States nationalists and they have brought this problem up to us.

I would guess we have been worried about this thing for over ten years.

Now, I notice that you are particularly interested in security. Let me say, first, that I have with me Mr. Armour, our Washington counsel, who has had experience with this. If you want to hear from him on this subject, we will be happy to have him speak.

Let it suffice to say that the thing seems to concern you, that a pilot may some how illicitly talk to the ground and talk to somebody and do something that is of danger to the security of the United States, is not too practical a concern, for one reason because of the nature of the equipment he is using.

The transmission he conducts in this radio equipment are only to Government stations on the ground. He can do illicit transmissions