Mr. MCBRIDE (continuing). So far as I know, every other labor organization wtih which I am familiar, furnishes similar information to their members, and it is available to any Government agency or department merely upon a request therefor.

Inasmuch as the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, whom I represent, is a member of the Railway Labor Executives' Association, and due to the fact that Mr. J. G. Luhrsen, executive secretary of that association, has presented further testimony opposing this legislation, I will not take the time of the committee to further argue this matter. I merely desired to inform you that the information mentioned in this bill is at this time available without the necessity of passing a law.

And that concludes my statement, Mr. Chairman, on H. R. 1483. I have a very brief statement on the other bill.

Mr. SCANLON. You may proceed.

Mr. MCBRIDE. My opposition to this proposal can be expressed in a very few sentences.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, whom I represent, is an international labor organization, which has been in in existence for nearly 70 years. The majority of our approximately 115,000 members reside in, and are citizens of, the United States. However, we have 100 lodges of the brotherhood in Canada-composed of probably 12,000 to 15,000 members.

When we hold our international conventions every 4 years, each one of the 943 lodges of the brotherhood sends one delegate to the

convention. In the election of officers it has been a long-established practice to elect one vice president and one member of the board of directors from Canada, to represent our membership from that country. Our general chairman of the Michigan Central Railroad, which operates in Canada and in the United States, is a Canadian, elected to his position by the local chairmen of our lodges on that railroad.

Under the provisions of this bill these Canadian officers would be barred from holding office, and our members in Canada who belong to our Brotherhood would be barred from voting for the officers who will represent them for the following 4-year period. They pay their dues, they are loyal to the brotherhood, and they are vitally affected by actions of the international convention; yet they would not be permitted to vote for such officers, or vote for or against any question of policy.

Therefore, H. R. 804 would certainly cause a great deal of inconvenience to our brotherhood, and, Mr. Chairman, I cannot see any good that would be accomplished by the legislation to offset the undesirable difficulty caused to all international labor organizations. I thank you.

Mr. SCANLON. Mr. Landis?

Mr. LANDIS. Well, of course, he has the same position as the other witness.

Their organization makes these reports but they are against compulsory legislation for others to make them-that is what I cannot understand. It is unfortunate that good labor organizations get the criticism because of a few racketeers. There must be some way to eliminate those fellows.

Do you have any ideas how we could get to those undesirable fellows by some legislation?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Well, Congressman, my theory in life I have served 33 years as an officer of this brotherhood-is that if I conduct myself properly in accordance with the laws of the land I have nothing to worry about, and naturally while that criticism comes to me from others, my conscience does not hurt me and I think after all if you can go through life knowing you are doing the right thing and doing the best that anybody can do, that really I would rather bear that criticism than to have my organization accused of doing something which we know there has never been anything of that kind in its 70 years of existence, and I concur in Mr. Luhrsen's statement that we are heartily in accord with proper punishment for racketeering. I might briefly take this much time:

I used to be a baseball player, played Sunday baseball.

I have seen the time we could play a very nice game, there would not be any quarreling and no trouble from the church people.

The next time we would have a lot of hoodlums and that just about spoiled Sunday baseball.

On the other hand we felt we should not be condemned because these men created this disturbance. We could stop that by not allowing them to play again.

Mr. SCANLON. They are pretty good gate builders, though. People like a good fighting game. I have had the same experience.

Mr. MCBRIDE. As I say, we played Sunday after Sunday without any trouble, but that is a different thing. Of course the people came in there and took the thing away and we stopped.

I do not object to this labor movement because I think it is a sacred movement and I am really thankful to God that he permitted me-my father failed in business and I thank God that I had to go out with my shovel and come up through the ranks, and I think it is a noble following and I would not do one thing to cast one shadow on it.

Mr. LANDIS. But under the present conditions it looks as though all labor is getting the criticism which many of the organizations do not deserve, and if we could do something to check the labor turnover, we could get at these racketeers.

Mr. SCANLON. Do you have any questions, Mr. Kelley?

Mr. KELLEY. No.

Mr. SCANLON. Do you have any, Mr. Day?

Mr. DAY. No.

Mr. SCANLON. That will be all.

I think we still have time.

Mr. Johnson is here.

Mr. W. D. Johnson, vice president and national legislative representative of the Order of Railway Conductors.

Mr. Johnson, you may proceed now.

STATEMENT OF W. D. JOHNSON, VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL: LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, ORDER OF RAILWAY CONDUCTORS

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, the Order of Railway Conductors is a member of the Railway Labor Executives Association and Mr. Luhrsen had full authority to speak for our organization and I am in full accord with the statement he made.

However, I want to place our organization individually on record as being opposed to H. R. 1483 and H. R. 804.

Our opposition is based on the fact that we are unable to see where any good can come from legislation of this character.

On the contrary, it is our honest judgment that it will result in strife, discord, and turmoil.

If there ever was a time in the history of our country when all forces should be working together and cooperating to the fullest extent, it is now.

Therefore, it is obviously unfair to labor to start a move that will result in creating discord, dissension, and suspicion.

The railway labor organizations have been in existence for a long period of years.

We take a great deal of pride in the fact that the Order of Railway Conductors is the second oldest labor organization in the United States with a continuous record.

We organized on July 6, 1868. And since that time I challenge any man to show where we have been guilty of any unethical move in the labor movement, or in any other movement in the United States. We are proud of our record. We have no secrets, so far as our financial, legislative, and protective activities are concerned.

Therefore, when a legitimate request is made for information with respect to the activities of our organization we gladly furnish it. We are proud to furnish it.

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But we feel that it is unfair because there are a few racketeers in the country that you should go out and throw water on every other group just because you are trying to corral a few.

And I am wondering Congressman Landis, with all sincerity, if there are as many racketeers in the United States at the present time, or at any other time, as the press and other means of spreading poisonous propaganda would make believe.

Now, we do not condone racketeering, and we believe it would be good for the labor movement if characters of that kind were relegated to the rear. And if there are some racketeers at this particular time, there are State laws to take care of them, and I am wondering why that has not been done.

But I say to you and I say it with all sincerity, I have been in the game quite a little while, it will soon be 45 years, and it is my opinion no good can come from legislation of this kind.

But on the contrary it will result in discord, dissention and rebellion on the part of honest labor, which is far out in the majority, if you try to place them in a category with racketeers who are trying to break down war fundamentals.

Mr. LANDIS. Well, you can see my point. You are considered in that group now by public sentiment.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I am wondering just how strong that public sentiment is. I am wondering if it were possible to make a complete canvass of the whole situation within the next 48 hours what the percentage would be of people who would come out openly and say that labor as a whole, or a majority of labor and labor leadersMr. LANDIS. No; I do not believe that.

Mr. JOHNSON (continuing). Are in the rank of racketeers?
Mr. LANDIS. No; I do not believe that.

. Mr. JOHNSON. I think you would be surprised if it were possible to portray a picture of that kind right now.

Mr. LANDIS. No. You misinterpret my meaning. I mean there is a great group of people that want to get at the right ones some way and they think Congress has to do it.

That is to say, many of them believe there should be no strike at all, and many of them do not believe in the jurisdictional strike which the employer has no jurisdiction. We are getting much criticism against jurisdictional strikes and high initiation fees in the war plants. The public wants Congress to do something about it. I say the majority of the public wants us to do away with those undesirable things.

Mr. SCANLON. The majority of the public, they still think that the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen and the rest of these organizations are in with these few particular organizations. They haven't had that defined to them, and they are being criticized just the same as the rest of them are along those lines.

Now, I believe it has been overemphasized on the criticism of labororganizations, in my own opinion. This high initiation fee did prevail in one or two jobs.

I think that is a State right to regulate what happens in those particular States. They should regulate those organizations in those States, and not Congress. I believe if the State does it it will be more corrective, and I believe there are definite laws on the State