tories, and people who are in the two-thirds category would certainly do it because obviously this would be the best opportunity they could

find?

Mr. PARSONS. Well, in these two-thirds, counting the present people up there, we would include in this two-thirds a fair number of people who would be in the retired category.

Senator PROXMIRE. I see.

Mr. PARSONS. I mean there would be those that would have to be deducted.

I have somewhere, which I will be glad to show you afterward, Senator, if you like, a record of employment in Oconto.

Senator PROXMIRE. Oconto?

Mr. PARSONS. In Oconto, as to the distribution of employment, as to what these people in Oconto County do, the change of employment in agriculture and industry, and so forth. I have that in some detail. Senator PROXMIRE. I would be very interested.

Mr. PARSONS. I do not happen to have the table with me.

Senator PROXMIRE. I have one more area that I am extremely interested in, and that is the local development corporation.

Mr. PARSONS. Yes.

Senator PROXMIRE. It would seem to me it would be very helpful if you had any figures showing what proportion of the development corporations, with what resources, were located in the depressed areas and which were not. It seems to me by far the most successful local development corporation in Wisconsin, in proportion to its size, is in Elkhorn, which is in Walworth County, it is 1 of the 2 or 3 most prosperous counties in the State.

I know a number of others that are located in the southern part and in the southeastern part, which are not really part of this problem at all.

It is my impression that if they raised $4 million--and I am surprised that it is not a great deal more than that, because that is not really very much-virtually all of it would be in the southern, southeastern, or eastern sections of the State, which is not really part of this major problem that I feel Senator Douglas is trying to help.

Mr. PARSONS. I have a list of the development corporations. I have never tried to put them on a map.

Senator PROXMIRE. I know they are distributed around. One of them is a little town where I have my business, Waterloo, Wis., very near Madison.

Mr. PARSONS. Yes. In talking to Professor Fine, who did this study, which will be published shortly, I find it is his conclusion that the development corporations work best in cities of 5,000 or less. This is a sort of smalltown phenomenon, where these work well. Now, just why this is, I am not so sure.

Senator PROXMIRE. I think they have a very sound idea. You see what Claude Ames, who is the editor of the Elkhorn paper, has done, and I think his idea has spread throughout the State. I know I have done my best to spread it around. It is to get very, very small companies in, companies small enough so that, if they failed, if they could not make a go of it, somebody else could come along with relatively small capital and move in. They have tried to get companies that would employ 50, 60, 70 people rather than 1 big industry.

Mr. PARSONS. Yes.

Senator PROXMIRE. This is sound for many, many reasons, and fits into a smalltown economy. It gives you diversification in your economy. The capital involved is relatively little.

These are proposals that can work beautifully in an area which is fairly near Chicago or the Milwaukee area. But when we get out in the northern part of the State, especially the northwestern part of the State, it seems to me that it might be much more difficult for these small development corporations to do the kind of job that is necessary to be done. It seems to me then you have to rely more on the sort of bill that Senator Douglas has proposed.

What I am trying to say is that I think that these two things will work well together for Wisconsin-the development corporations performing extremely valuable and useful functions, but with a very, very great need for something of the kind that the Douglas bill provides.

Mr. PARSONS. Well, I, myself, see no conflict at all between what is being tried, what is being done there, and what is being proposed here.

Senator PROXMIRE. I agree with that. They are supplementary. Mr. PARSONS. They are supplementary. It is, of course, a tremendously difficult thing to choose an industry and get one established that would go. I would suppose that the Douglas bill might be able to take maybe even a well-established small industry and help it grow, once it had its position established. As to the success of these in the northern part of the State, there are a few distinguished examples. Senator PROXMIRE. I know there are.

Mr. PARSONS. Park Falls, Eagle River-where something has been done.

Talking with my colleagues about the basis upon which this industrial development rested, I find that one of the requirements of the location is that it be an industry in which transportation charges are relatively light. For example, I believe there is a factory that makes some kind of gages up in the Flambeau area. They make a rather delicate gage of some kind in which transportation of 500 miles is not a major consequence in terms of cost per unit. An industry in which the transportation costs are relatively light can make its decision more on the basis of available labor supply and where people like to live, and so on. But you are working on rather small margins in choosing these industries.

Senator PROXMIRE. I know it.

Mr. PARSONS. As I say, I, myself, see no conflict between the provisions of the Douglas bill and what is being done in the State. It does seem to me that this might be a way of putting risk capital into an area where the counterpart of which is not now available. Senator PROXMIRE. Thank you, sir.

Senator DOUGLAS. Thank you very much, Mr. Parsons.

The next witness is Mr. Walter J. Wills of Southern Illinois University at Carbondale.

Mr. Wills, we are glad to have you with us today.

STATEMENT OF WALTER J. WILLS, PROFESSOR, SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY, CARBONDALE, ILL.

Mr. WILLS. Senator Douglas, I have this statement that I would like to give you for the record. I have a few comments that I would like to make.

Senator DOUGLAS. Suppose we say that your typewritten statement will be printed in the record at the conclusion of your remarks. Then you make your own comments, which also will be printed.

Mr. WILLS. In this problem, we are concerned with the employment of resources. In these underdeveloped areas, the surplus resource is labor. We are either going to have to employ this labor on the farm or off the farm. So far as we are concerned with these bills here, it seems to me that we are primarily concerned with off-farm use of the

resources.

I thought that I would spend my time here talking about some of the experiences I have had in working with the people in southern Illinois, as well as with people in Washington State and the counties that are crosshatched on the map you have.

(The map referred to will be found on p. 958.)

Senator DOUGLAS. Would you speak up louder, please?

Mr. WILLS. Stevens and Pend Oreille Counties and the other counties in Washington State where I have also worked and which have this same problem. One of our big problems is to get the confidence of the people. Not only to get the confidence of the people you are working with, but to build up the confidence of all the people so they will be willing to go ahead and try to do something. Many times this means that we have to change their attitudes.

I have been working with the vegetable growers in the Compton area. When I first started working with them they said, "Well, it is a dying industry"—the usual type of thing that we get down there sometimes. After working with them for a couple of years, I found they were talking in terms of expanding and how they were going to grow. This is good when we start getting this change in attitude. In your map there is one thing. Pope and Hardin Counties. I am not sure whether they are included or not. So far as I am concerned they probably are in worse shape than Pulaski, Alexander, or a number of other counties.

Those counties have a large number of farmers who are part time. They work in the fluorspar mines and at other times have workSenator DOUGLAS. I think all 5 of those counties are in the 300 counties with the lowest income per capita in the country.

Mr. WILLS. Yes.

Senator DOUGLAS. And this includes Pope and Hardin which have fluorspar mining in their district.

Mr. WILLS. That is right. In this area that is going out of the coal-mining business we have this transition. We have the transition to fluorspar mining. All those things present problems in working with the farmers.

We have, of course, a large number of part-time farmers. There are two reasons why they may be part time. One is that they may be interested primarily in economic security, a means of getting a livelihood. The other may be that they did need more income than their other job provides.

From the standpoint of agriculture this presents a problem because these people are hard to reach. They are not using the best techniques. They have limited capital. They are very difficult to reach through our normal teaching methods. The extension people have difficulty in reaching them.

I might mention that in my work in extension this is considered to be one of our major problems.

The vocational aid teachers have trouble in reaching them.

This means that their state of knowledge about the new technology is quite limited.

When we start thinking of industry, there, of course, I have a bias since I do work in agriculture. I am basically concerned with two types of industry that are more or less related to agriculture. We had a food-processing plant that wanted to come in to southern Illinois last year, and I worked with them for about 2 or 3 months trying to take care of some of the problems.

We had the supply of goods, we had the technical know-how, but we did not have the money to bring the plant. We had the water. We had the sewerage system. We had everything except the capital. And because of that, of course, the plant did not come in.

Senator DOUGLAS. Of course, it is the purpose of this bill to help provide a part of the capital to such industries as that.

Mr. WILLS. That is right. We had two or three hundred thousand dollars that we could get hold of, plus what the man had, but he still needed a couple hundred thousand dollars more money. Maybe if we could have found another hundred thousand dollars some place we could have rounded up the rest. But we could not go ahead until we had more capital. And this hurt, because it was a plant that was to have processed peaches, apples, and then, of course, we had visions that eventually it would get into vegetable crops.

The other thing that I think that a bill like this could do would be that it could help channel our agricultural production. If we had, say, an egg-grading station, then this would give us an incentive to go out with a program to produce quality eggs. If we did that, it would help our agricultural situation. It would provide employment for some people in town or some of our farmers, and it would also provide employment in the feed industry or other industries supporting poultry.

These are the kinds of industries which it seems to me there is excellent opportunity to help develop, which will also help develop agriculture in the area. And this is, I think, quite possible and probable with the bills that are under consideration.

When it comes to industry, I have forgotten who made this point, which 1 of the 2 men before me, but many times we have thought of industries that require very little skill and that usually have relatively low pay scales. I would hope that if we do have something like this we would be able to raise the sights of our local communities to the place where they would start thinking in terms of industries