Mr. ANDRESEN. Well, if you would add enough to that cottonseed oil to give it the same color as butter, would it destroy the value of the product then for the manufacture of oleomargarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. It would be worthless because it is a fluid then. This cottonseed oil, you would have to use straight, to give it the same color as butter and if you try to make a semisolid table spread out of a liquid oil, I am afraid it could not be done.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Then, under no circumstances could you add enough of the liquid so that the product could be used, or would look like butter, and the product would be rendered worthless for oleomargarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes; that is my point.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Now, you mentioned one other point that I do not think you touched on. You stated it had to go through a deodorizing process. What kind of a smell does it have before you deodorize it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, after it comes from the hydrogenator it has a smell that has been variously described as sour apples or fruity and it is a characteristic odor that seems to develop during hydrogenation. Mr. ANDRESEN. It would be unfit for human consumption? Mr. DOUGLASS. Oh, yes; it could not be used at that point. Mr. ANDRESEN. So you have to take the odor out of it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Do you know of any butter that has to go through the same process?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not know of anybody that is deodorizing regular butter.

Mr. ANDRESEN. It may be some of this reconstituted butter that my friend, Mr. Murray, talks about. Are you at liberty to submit the formula that is used in the manufacture of oleomargarine? Mr. DOUGLASS. I can reproduce it from memory.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Will you do that for the record?

Mr. DOUGLASS. It is 80.2 percent of oils which vary according to their availability. The one that is used the most is cottonseed oil. In that 80 percent we use percentages of soybean oil from nothing up to 35 percent. That is hydrogenated soybean oil. If we have peanut oil, which we do not have very often, we can use that up to 100 percent. We can use corn oil, which we do not have very often, up to 50 percent, and that accounts for the oil fraction. The rest of it is approximately 16 percent skimmed milk or 16%1⁄2 percent skimmed milk, 3 percent salt, and a half percent of minor ingredients, which include lecithin, and an emulsifying agent.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Do you put any fish oil in it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is a minute quantity that goes in as a carrier of the vitamin A.

Mr. ANDRESEN. That has also been deodorized?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Does it have a fishy smell to it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No. Some of the manufacturers use a distillation process which does take most of the odor out of it. The amount used is rather small, too. I do not think that the fishiness is generally found due to that source.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Do you put anything into it to give it a butter flavor?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes. Diacetyl.

Mr. ANDRESEN. What percentage?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I think it figures out about 3 parts per million. Mr. ANDRESEN. What flavor would the oleomargarine have if you did not put diacetyl in it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Somewhat tasteless.

Mr. ANDRESEN. You are, of course, representing the research and scientific end for your company. What they do in their business policy with reference to oleomargarine or any other commodity, you are not sufficiently informed to answer intelligently on those issues? Mr. DOUGLASS. No, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. But you do know this, that as far as the package that is used for oleomargarine distribution by your company, that is available to other companies and is used by several other companies? Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. So that you do not have a monopoly on it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Do you know of any time that your company has ever appeared before this committee or any other committee of Congress, either for or against oleomargarine legislation?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Not to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I would like to have the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Pace, if I may have his attention, submit for the record the information that he has that this company was here on previous occasions supporting the passage of legislation of this kind. I would also like to have him show the other companies that are engaged in the manufacture of oleomargarine, as to their position on this subject.

it is, in view of the charges he made, something that should be cleared up in the record for every company. On that I just want to comment that up to the present time for the proponents of this bill not one single processor or manufacturer of oleomargarine has appeared, that representatives of the industry have refused to appear or testify before this committee, and I hope that before we get through with this hearing they will volunteer to appear to show their interest in the campaign that they are putting on for this legislation.

Mr. POAGE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. ANDRESEN. I will yield.

Mr. PACE. Will the gentleman yield?

The CHAIRMAN. Does the gentleman yield? If so, to whom?
Mr. ANDRESEN. I yield to Mr. Murray.

Mr. MURRAY. I have a telegram from a lady down in Texas. that

says: "Does this committee know that oleomargarine is poisonous due to the preservative known as sodium benzoate?"

Now, is that used in connection with making oleomargarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes.

Mr. WORLEY. Is it poisonous?

Mr. MURRAY. I did not ask that. I have not yielded.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Let him answer.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I would not think it would be fair to say that it is poisonous in the quantities used.

Mr. MURRAY. I was straightened out a little the other day, and I have heard a lot of long questions this morning. I intended to ask a question before, and I just want to know for information if they do use benzoate of soda and I also want the record to show that you cannot

put this benzoate of soda in butter without risking a term in jail. According to law no one dares to put benzoate of soda in butter which is added in oleomargarine.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Now, another question, Mr. Douglass. Is it not a fact that a considerable portion of butter-I do not know what percentage is sold in its natural state as uncolored butter to certain high-class trade in this country?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I think that is true.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I think Mr. Holman will be able to tell us more about that.

Mr. GoFF. Mr. Andresen.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I yield to the gentleman from Idaho.

Mr. GOFF. I would like to have this question answered: Is it true as stated by Mr. Murray that benzoate of soda cannot be used in butter under the law?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not know.

Mr. GoFF. All right.

Mr. PACE. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I will yield to the gentleman.

Mr. PACE. What was it the gentleman wanted?

Mr. ANDRESEN. I just wanted you to submit the information that you have that this company has appeared here previously or before Congress in opposition or for this legislation.

Mr. PACE. Mr. Chairman, my statement was that I had been advised that heretofore the Cudahy Packing Co. had favored the repeal of the taxes. I read from a memorandum which was supplied to me:

Cudahy for years favored repeal of laws and was a member of the association. Now Cudahy has the new package and is trying to get competitive advantage. The second memorandum is:

Cudahy Packing Co. was a member of the association. They supported the association's general program, part of which was to oppose the Federal margarine laws.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Was that submitted to the gentleman by Mr. Truitt?

Mr. PACE. In the light of the challenge by the gentleman from Minnesota, I would not be willing to rest on this, and by the convening of the committee tomorrow, I will be delighted to submit proof, as I think the committee is entitled to know whether or not my advice is correct. If it is not, I will certainly retract it.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Does the gentleman care to divulge who furnished him with that? If it is confidential, I do not want it, but I think we ought to clear the record on it.

Mr. PACE. It was furnished me either by Mr. Rhea Blake, secretary of the National Cotton Council, or Mr. Truitt of the margarine association.

Mr. Truitt, are you here?

Mr. TRUITT. Yes, sir; I am here.

I am president of the National Association of Margarine Manufacturers.

Mr. PACE. Did you furnish me with this memorandum?

Mr. TRUITT. I did the second, not the first. While I am on my feet, may I say that I would like the record to show that this morning Í spoke to the chairman, and I trust the chairman will corroborate this,

and offered my services as a witness either this morning or at any time hereafter to answer any questions you may have, and while I am talking, I want to say that the National Association of Margarine Manufactures had two witnesses ready for the hearing. We waived our entire time and gave it up in favor of the consumers.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Just a second. Do not make a speech now.

Mr. TRUITT. Mr. Chairman, I have been chased long enough. I want to say that we waived our time in favor of the consumer groups because the consumers have the first interest in margarine in the United States.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Mr. Chairman, I think it is inopportune for the gentleman to make a statement at this time now that he has volunteered to come before the committee, and I am very glad that he has. We certainly will give him that opportunity with the consent of the chairman and members of the committee because I would like to interrogate him.

Mr. PACE. Will the gentleman wait on my statement until we have had an opportunity to question him on that?

Mr. ANDRESEN. Yes.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Mr. Douglass, does your company believe in a system of free enterprise?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am very sure they do.

Mr. ABERNETHY. In other words, they believe, and you believe, that one product ought to be permitted to compete in a field of equal opportunity with a competitive product.

Mr. DOUGLASS. They may have some very definite views on that, but I have never heard them expressed.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Well, they are definitely opposed to Federal controls that do not apply to all companies and products alike, are they not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I have never heard them say.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Now, your people sell products to cotton farmers, soybean farmers, and dairy farmers alike, and your company would not want to favor one segment of the farm industry to the injury of another?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, sir; and we feel that we are buying an awful lot of cottonseed oil and an awful lot of soybean oil and we certainlyI know I have heard them express this, that they certainly have the interests of the South at heart because the South are good customers and we have plants in the South. We put up a packing house at Albany, Ga., so that we could sell back to the people of Georgia meat that was made from their own livestock and they would not have to bring it in from the North.

Mr. ABERNETHY. You like to do business with them; do you not?
Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir; we do, and we like to buy from them.
Mr. ABERNETHY. And they are pretty good customers?

Mr. DOUDLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ABERNETHY. And you would not want a Federal law that would prevent a product of the cotton farmer from operating in a field of fair competition with any other product?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I think we have demonstrated our feeling toward the farmer by the large amounts of cottonseed oil we do buy, both for margarine and shortening.

Mr. ÅBERNETHY. Do you recognize these laws as being punitive?

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Mr. DOUGLASS. I have not thought of them in that connection. Mr. ABERNETHY. In what connection have you thought of them? If they are not punitive, what are they?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not know. I am not an expert.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Are they not designed to prevent cottonseed oil from being used in the manufacture of margarine in competition with butter?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not know. I have heard some people give other reasons.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Did you not hear Mr. Holman testify this morning that if these laws were removed it would seriously affect the butter market?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I believe he did say that.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Therefore, that is true, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I presume so, if he said it.

Mr. ABERNETHY. And, therefore, if the laws are removed, butter then would have to stand on its own feet under equal and fair laws? Mr. DOUGLASS. I think you will have some witnesses who know a lot more about it.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I am not asking the other witnesses. I am asking

you.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not know. I do not know what the consequences would be.

Mr. ABERNETHY. That is all.

Mr. GoFF. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Goff.

Mr. GoFF. I raised the question as to whether benzoate of soda could be added to butter. The witness has stated that it is added to margarine. For the information of the committee, I would like to submit for the record the definition of butter as provided by law. This is Public Law 519 of the Sixty-seventh Congress. It provides that

For the purposes of the Food and Drug Act of June 30, 1906, butter shall be understood to mean the food product usually known as butter and which is made exclusively from milk or cream or both, with or without common salt, and with or without additional coloring matter, and containing not less than 80 per centum by weight of milkfat, all tolerances having been allowed for.

The only conclusion I can derive from that is that if benzoate of soda is added, that it would not any longer be butter and that it would be misbranded if it carried the label of butter.

Mr. WORLEY. Would that necessarily follow? It provides not less than 80 percent shall be of such products. What about the other 20 percent?

Mr. GoFF. Well, you have common salt. It says made exclusively of milk and cream. It does not provide for any other substance except what is found naturally in the product.

Mr. WORLEY. Do you conclude that that excludes any other substance?

Mr. GOFF. That would be my conclusion.

Mr. WORLEY. In the 20 percent? I do not know. I am just raising that point for information.

Mr. PACE. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Pace.