nothing to do with policy, he knows nothing about policy, he is a fairly new employee of the company and deals only with chemistry, so the Chair thinks that the gentleman's point is well taken.

Mr. POAGE. I do want to ask him one or two questions about his chemistry.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Will you yield for one question? I want to get it in the record.

Mr. POAGE. Surely.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. I believe you stated that your company colored. its butter; that is correct, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I believe so. I do not have first-hand knowledge, but I think they probably do.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. What I wanted to know: Do they use the same artificial coloring in butter that they use in margarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I cannot say whether they do, but they could. Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, you are a chemist, are you not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. And know what artificial coloring you are using in butter and in margarine, do you not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I know that it varies. There are certain certified colors, and you can purchase them from a manufacturer who has obtained a certificate of certification from the Department of Agriculture that they are pure, unadulterated colors.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, it is the same artificial coloring in margarine that you use in butter; is that not right?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. I just wanted to clear that up. It is the same coloring you put in butter, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes.

Mr. POAGE. Let me ask you this question about the chemical aspects of it.

When did you make these experiments you were talking about? Mr. DOUGLASS. Just this last week. We have been making them over a long period of years, but I made them so I could have some samples available.

Mr. POAGE. When you were making these experiments, you were still trying to find a method to make a naturally colored margarine or were you trying to make an experiment to prove to us that it could not be done?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, I was told to prepare samples to see what happened.

Mr. POAGE. You were not making an effort to produce colored margarine? You were just going through a process to see what was going to happen?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Which I had done many times before. I knew how it was going to come our.

Mr. PACE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. POAGE. Yes.

Mr. PACE. If you color both butter and margarine, if you sell it as colored margarine and to avoid the law, the tax, I should say, on selling colored margarine, you have this bag to mix it in, if there was a similar law with respect to butter, you would necessarily put the butter in the bag and color it, or let the housewife color it the same way?

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is a possibility.

Mr. PACE. That would naturally follow. Then, the only reason you color butter mechanically at your plant and do not color margarine mechanically at your plant is by reason of the 10-cent tax?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I just do not know whether they would want to take the chance of coloring margarine or not and having any argument. Mr. POAGE. Do you make colored margarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, we do not, no. I think we made some on Government contracts during the war. I was not there then. We do not make any now.

Mr. POAGE. In other words, when you were selling margarine to the United States Government you colored it yellow?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I think so. I was not there at the time.

Mr. POAGE. When you sold it under lend-lease, you colored it yellow, did you not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I think so, but I was not here at that time.

Mr. POAGE. There was nothing harmful about that, was there, for the soldiers or the lend-lease? You did not put out a harmful product, did you?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Not that I know of, I am sure.

Mr. POAGE. Then, if it would not harm those people, it would not harm the rest of the American public, would it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am not sure that anybody ever said the color would harm anybody.

Mr. POAGE. I am not saying it, either. I am wondering if you say it. You are a chemist and you should know whether there is any harmful effect in coloring.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not think the color has any harmful effect. Mr. GRANGER. Mr. Dougalss, are you familiar with the chemistry of the manufacture of oleomargarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRANGER. Is there more than one method of getting the necessary chemical reaction to make oleomargarine?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I would say that there were variations to the standard methods of doing it. As far as I know, everybody refines the oil and bleaches it and hydrogenates it and deodorizes it, and then mixes it with milk and solidifies it.

Mr. GRANGER. Not as a lawyer, but as a layman, let me ask you this question: I think testimony that has been presented to the committee leaves the impression that in order to manufacture oleomargarine, to comply with the law, you had to employ some chemical reaction in order to comply with the law; is that true? What I am trying to say is: The inference has been made that in addition to the restriction that has been put on oleomargarine, they have to go through another process to take out coloring in order to comply with the law; is that true?

Mr. DOUGLASS. They cannot avoid taking out the color. That was the purpose of my preparing this demonstration, because people have said, "Look at the beautiful natural color of the yellow oils and yet we are required to take that color out." But you must inevitably take that color out in producing margarine out of those oils.

Mr. GRANGER. Then, in view of that testimony, if I understand you right, and if I understand that testimony right, that is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I would say it was probably due to ignorance.
Mr. POAGE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. GRANGER. Yes.

Mr. POAGE. Before you charge me as being ignorant, which is undoubtedly what I am, or as misrepresenting, as I have not intended to do, I want to see if I understand your testimony again. Will you hold that cottonseed oil up? I understand that this is hydrogenated oil.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes; it is.

Mr. POAGE. And that there is a practice of adding about 10 percent of unhydrogenated oil.

Mr. DOUGLASS. The extreme maximum sometimes is added.

Mr. POAGE. All right, 10 percent may be added and that will influence the color of this about 30 percent, which would carry this above the limit for yellow coloring. Now, as I understand it, that is what you have testified to.

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is probably about what would happen.

Mr. POAGE. Then, that requires a bleaching of that, not for hydrogenation or any other purpose other than to comply with the law, but it requires a bleaching of that product before it is sold, else it will be subject to the tax. Now, that is the fact, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Of that particular product, it might, but-
Mr. POAGE. Now, wait a minute.

Mr. GoFF. Let the witness answer.

Mr. MURRAY. Let him answer the question.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Let the witness answer.

Mr. POAGE. He tells me that it might. He has already testified once that it would. I just do not want the gentleman to leave me in the position here of having misrepresented something to my colleagues when he has already testified plainly that it would do it.

Mr. DOUGLASS. But even so, the point I am trying to make is that it might pass the law, but it still would not be the color that is desired. Mr. POAGE. Again I come back to the fact, the gentleman here understands from your testimony and I think you made it very clear that I was either ignorant-and I plead guilty of that fact-or that I deliberately misrepresented to him which I do not plead guilty to-when I said that under the process of manufacturing where you put 10 percent additional unhydrogenated cottonseed oil in this, that, according to your testimony, which was to the effect that it would raise the color in this about 30 percent-now, I am telling the truth, am I not? That that would raise the color above the legal limit? I am not talking about any sales. I am not asking you about anything except the law which you told the gentleman I either did not understand or misrepresented to him?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I was not referring to you. I was referring to previous testimony.

Mr. POAGE. Am I not telling the truth when I say that this, with 10 percent cottonseed oil added to it, would have to pay the tax or be in violation of the law?

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is probably possible.

Mr. GRANGER. Mr. Chairman, may I straighten the record? I am just taking the evidence of the other witnesses who have been here. Mr. GoFF. Mr. Chairman, I have a question which I would like to ask the witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Goff.

Mr. GoFF. I do not believe it has been brought out what the tintometer reading of those two samples, one a sample of hydrogen-treated cottonseed oil and one a sample of the hydrogen-treated soybean oil. We have had the reading on the oil in the natural state. Now, will you give us a reading on the sample that is now held by Mr. Flannagan, then the sample of the hydrogenated soybean oil? Let us get that for the record.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. This reads 20 Y-2 R.
Mr. DOUGLASS. That is 20 yellow; 2 red.

Mr. GOFF. That is on the cottonseed sample?

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Yes.

Mr. DOUGLASS. The soybean sample has no red content at all. It is 20 yellow; 1-5 blue.

The CHAIRMAN. Had you finished, Mr. Goff?

Mr. GoFF. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Flannagan.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. This sample I hold in my hand marked "Exhibit B," as I understand is cottonseed oil.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. And I believe you stated in response to a question. from Mr. Poage that the color of this cottonseed oil is about the color of your butter before it is artificially colored; is that right?

Mr. ANDRESEN. He did not say that.

Mr. Douglass, I did not say that; no. I would have to have some butter alongside it to make the statement.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. What is the difference in the color of butter and the color of cottonseed oil before artificial coloring is used?

Mr. DOUGLASs. In some cases it is quite marked. In many cases, it is.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. In many cases you can hardly tell one from the other?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not think it is quite that bad.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, then, both of the colors would be called by the ordinary fellow white; that is true, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, I have never seen any white butter. There may be such.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, is this white? This is not white?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No; it is a very, very pale color.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Now, I understand you to say-but I may be mistaken that there was very little difference in the color of cottonseed oil and butter before artificial coloring was used.

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not believe I said that, sir.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. What color is put in the butter at your plant? Mr. DOUGLASS. Well, it varies from a little color up to something like that.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, that is artificial color, is it not?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir. That is the color of butter.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. And that has been artificially colored, has it not? Mr. DOUGLASS. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, that is not the color, then, that you produce before you put the color in it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. That is not the color of the margarine; no, sir.
Mr. FLANNAGAN. I am talking about butter.

Mr. DOUGLASS. Some butter is that color.

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Mr. FLANNAGAN. Some butter is in certain seasons, but that butter that you have there was not that color before you put that coloring in it, was it?

Mr. DOUGLASS. This is margarine oil, not butter. I have no butter here.

Mr. FLANNANGAN. But did you say you put color in all of your butter?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No; I did not say we put color in all of our butter. Mr. FLANNAGAN. Then, what percent of your butter produced at your plant do you put color into?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am sorry; I do not have that information.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, how do you know they do not color it all? Mr. DOUGLASS. Because I have been told that by our butter operating people.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Well, did they not tell you what percentage they color?

Mr. DOUGLASS. They did not; no, sir; they never did. We never went into that.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. You are the chemist in charge of the coloring? Mr. DOUGLASS. In charge of coloring? No; that is not done by the scientific end of the business at all.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. I thought the chemist was in charge.

Mr. DOUGLASS. The butter coloring is not done by the scientific end of the business which I represent.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Then, you do not know what percentage of the butter you color?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Beg pardon?

Mr. FLANNAGAN. They may color all of the butter in that plant; is that not true?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not get around to all those plants periodically. Mr. FLANNAGAN. Take the plant you work in. Do they color all the butter there?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I am sorry. We do not make any butter there. Mr. FLANNAGAN. Just tell me one plant in which you produce butter.

Mr. DOUGLASS. We have plants

Mr. FLANNAGAN. At which you do not color all of the butter produced?

Mr. DOUGLASS. Fairmont, N. Dak.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. Now, as a matter of fact, you color all of this butter to give it a uniform color; is that not true?

Mr. DOUGLASS. I do not believe that is true, sir.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. And you make that statement, that you do not color all of your butter to give it a uniform color?

Mr. DOUGLASS. No, sir; we do not. There is some butter that does not need to be colored.

Mr. FLANNAGAN. All right.
Mr. ANDRESEN. Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Andresen.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Just to clear up a few questions here. How much of the liquid soybean and coconut oil that has the so-called yellow color in it would have to be added to this product here, this white product, to give it the same color as butter?

Mr. DOUGLASS. You would have to use this cottonseed oil straight.