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Mr. ROLLAND. Institutions of special interest to the Department of Defense do not interpose a problem. Educational activities do present an operational problem. There have been a number of such special groups such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Camp Fire Girls which do present operational problems. There are no Federal laws authorizing such donations. We are of the opinion that such donations have been made under a discretionary determination of the Secretary of Defense.

Mr. SHRIVER. In other words, what you are saying is that the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Camp Fire Girls are now receiving surplus personal property under a Department of Defense interpretation of section 203 (i) of the Federal Property and Administrative Service Act of 1949, as amended. This section of the law authorizes the Secretary of Defense to allocate property, which is in his custody, directly to schools and military academies of special interest to the armed services, and under this authority property is syphoned off to Boy Scout and Girl Scout units before the property becomes available for health and education.

Mr. ROLLAND. That is done, yes.
Mr. SHRIVER. That is under existing law?

Mr. ROLLAND. I don't know whether there is a law that provides for it or not. Is there?

Mr. SHRIVER. There is no law that I know of except the one cited a few moments ago. Now subparagraph (2) of this bill merely restates what is in Public Law 152, 1st Congress, and Public Law 61, of last year, except for the change in line 4, page 3, which would require the property to go through the State agency for surplus property.

Mr. ROLLAND. For donations to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts?

Mr. SHRIVER. As I remember it, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts were not enumerated in the law as were schools or colleges of special interest to the armed services.

Mr. Chairman, I have copies of the Defense regulations which lists the schools of special interest to the armed services, and, with your permission I would like to place them in the record.

Senator KENNEDY. I would like to have that list in the record.

Mr. SHRIVER. I have a copy of the Department of Defense regulations.

Senator KENNEDY. At this point we will put that in the record, without objection.

(The material referred to is as follows:)

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NAVY PROPERTY REDISTRIBUTION AND DISPOSAL REGULATION No. 1

803

DONATION

This paragraph outlines the procedure to be followed in donating personal property to service educational activities; educational and public health institutions; State and local governments and nonprofit associations, organizations and corporations, and ships sponsors; and the return of property loaned or donated to the Navy. Property donated hereunder must be in a surplus category as determined in accordance with the screening provisions of chapter 2 or 4. Any need for excess or surplus property expressed by a Federal agency shall be paramount to any donation if such need is made known to the holding activity prior to shipment or delivery to a donee.

1. Service Educational Activities. Upon receipt of a written request, surplus property determined to be usable and necessary for educational purposes by Headquarters Marine Corps, chiefs of bureaus or commanding officers or their duly authorized representatives may be donated, without charge for the prop. erty, to the following service educational activities which have been designated by the Secretary of Defense as being schools of special interest to the Armed Forces:

Admiral Billard Academy, New London, Conn.
Admiral Farragut Academy, Pine Beach, N. J.
Admiral Farragut Academy, St. Petersburg, Fla.
Augusta Military Academy, Fort Defiance, Va.
Bolles School, Jacksonville, Fla.
Bordentown Military Institute, Bordentown, N. J.
Brown Military Academy, San Diego, Calif.
California Maritime Academy, Vellejo, Calif.
Camp Fire Girls, Inc., 16 East 48th Street, New York 17, N. Y.
Castle Heights Military Academy, Lebanon, Tenn.
Columbia Military Academy, Columbia, Tenn.
Culver Military Academy, Culver, Ind.
Fishburne Military School, Waynesboro, Va.
Fork Union Military Academy, Fork Union, Va.
Georgia Military Academy, College Park, Ga.
Greenbrier Military School, Lewisburg, W. Va.
Howe Military School, Howe, Ind.
Kamehameha School for Boys, Honolulu, T. H.
Kentucky Military Institute, Lyndon, Ky.
La Salle Military Academy, Oakdale, Long Island, N. Y.
Maine Maritime Academy, Castine, Me.
Marmion Military Academy, Aurora, Ill.
Massachusetts Maritime Academy, State Pier, Buzzard's Bay, Mass.
Massanutten Military Academy, Woodstock, Va.
Missouri Military Academy, Mexico, Mo.
Morgan Park Military Academy, Chicago, Ill.
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol, Inc., Bolling Air Force Base,

Washington, D. C.
National Headquarters, Boy Scouts of America, 2 Park Avenue, New York

16, N. Y. National Headquarters, Girl Scouts of America, 155 East 44th Street, New

York 17, N. Y. New York State Maritime Academy, Fort Schuyler, Bronx, New York, N. Y. New York Military Academy, Cornwall-on-Hudson, N. Y. Northwestern Military and Naval Academy, Walworth, Wis. Oak Ridge Military Institute, Oakridge, N. C. Porter Military Academy, Charleston, S. C. Riverside Military Academy, Gainesville, Ga. Sewanee Military Academy, Sewanee, Tenn. Shattuck School, Faribault, Minn. Staunton Military Academy, Staunton, Va. St. John's Military Academy, Delafield, Wis. St. Joseph's College and Military Academy, Hays, Kans. St. Thomas Military Academy, St. Paul, Minn. Tabor Academy, Marion, Mass. Tennessee Military Institute, Sweetwater, Tenn. Texas Military Institute, San Antonio, Tex. The Manlius School, Manlius, N. Y.

Western Military Academy, Alton, Ill. The written request or application shall contain as a minimum (i) name of desig. nated educational activity ; (ii) complete identification of personal property requested; (iii) certification by the designated educational activity that personal property requested is usable and necessary to it; and (iv) authorization by the Headquarters Marine Corps, chief of the bureau (or SDCP), or commanding officer, or their duly authorized representative, that excess personal property requested is approved for donation if and when the property becomes surplus to the Government.

All property must be in a surplus category before it can be donated. Accordingly, nonreportable items which have been determined bureau excess and reportable items which have been determined surplus are eligible for immediate donation. However, for any reportable items of activity excess property which have not previously been determined surplus and which are desired by a service educational activity, a notation shall be made on the Standard Form 120 that the property is desired for donation to a service educational activity and the approved written request or application shall be attached to the declaration. The declaration will be forwarded through regular screening channels to the Surplus Materials Division. Provided no need for the property is expressed with. in the Department of Defense, or by any Federal agency while being screened by the Federal Supply Service and the appropriate notation is made on the declaration, the GSA regional office will release the property as surplus to the holding activity for donation to the service educational activity without making it available for screening by the Department of Health, Elucation and Welfare for donation to educational and public health institutions. The donee shall be required to pay all costs of care, handling, packing and transportation incident to the donation.

In some instances, service educational activities, such as the Boy Scout and Girl Scout organizations and the Civil Air Patrol, have made arrangements to centrally screen reportable items through receipt of consolidated excess listings from Surplus Materials Division. Applications for desired items will then be submitted by the donee to Surplus Materials Division which, if approved, will note on the Standard Form 120 that the property is desired for donation to a service educational activity. In the event no other Federal agency desires the property, through screening by Federal Supply Service, the Federal Supply Service will release the property as surplus, together with the application. The holding activity will request shipping instructions from the applicant and donate the property accordingly.

2. Educational and public health institutions. The Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare is responsible for determining the overall requirements of educational and public-health institutions for donable property on the basis of needs and utilization,

ARMY REGULATIONS

16. Donations to service educational activities.-See AR 755–5 for definitions.a. Requests from recognized service educational activities for donations of donable surplus property will be in writing, signed by the head of the activity or, in his name, by a person so authorized to act (except as in (1), (2), (3), and (4) below) and will include a complete list of the items requested and a statement that the items are usable and necessary for the recognized activities of the organization or institution. The request will contain an acknowledgement of the responsibility, in case the material is not placed in use within a reasonable time or becomes excess to the requirements of the educational activity, to notify the Department of the Army that the material is not needed and make it available for return without cost.

(1) Requests for donation to the Civil Air Patrol must emanate from, or bear the approval of, the national headquarters of that organization or an Air Force-Civil Air Patrol liaison officer.

(2) Requests for donations from the Boy Scouts of America, including the Sea Scouts and the Air Explorers Division, must bear the approval of the National council of the Boy Scouts of America or a regional office of that organization.

(3) Requests for donations from the Girl Scouts of the United States of America must bear the approval of the national headquarters or a regional office of that organization.

(4) Requests for donations from the Camp Fire Girls, Inc., must bear the approval of the local board or executive committee and must be signed by the executive director of the council making the request.

(5) Upon receipt of a request from a local organization of the Boy Scouts of America ; the Girl Scouts of the United States of America ; or the Camp Fire Girls, Inc., the property will be held for a period not to exceed 15 days to permit the local organization to secure necessary approval as required by (2), (3), and (4) above.

AIR FORCE REGULATIONS

(AFM 67-1, Vol. XIII, July 1, 1953) DONATION TO EDUCATION ACTIVITIES

a. Donable property, in custody of the base disposal officer, may, upon receipt of a request, approved by an approving authority as prescribed in paragraph 146, section 5, be donated to education activities designated to be of special interest to the Department of Defense. *

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f. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Written "Application for Donation,” to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America and their affiliated organizations, must be certified by the applicable regional director and approved by the appropriate Air Force Headquarters, as shown in Supplement VI, Section 3.

Mr. SHRIVER. The other point that I wanted to make, Mr. Chairman, was that paragraph 2, of this bill contains identical language as is now in Public Law 61, except for the words, “the appropriate State Agency for distribution to” on lines 4 and 5, page 3 of the bill and a paragraph change on line 8.

The reference to the appropriate State agency” was placed in the bill to funnel all of the property through a single organization in each State.

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Rolland, do you know the value of the property distributed by the Department of Defense for the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts ?

Mr. ROLLAND. No, I do not. I believe GSA has those figures.

Senator KENNEDY. How can you decide on the local basis where the property will go, as far as the division between health and education is concerned? Is there any problem about priority ?

Mr. ROLLAND. We have experienced no problem. We feel that if the property is equitably distributed, there is no problem. This is the consensus of all the State agencies for surplus property. A priority would present more problems than it would relieve.

Senator KENNEDY. You feel that your agencies should continue to have the distribution of this surplus property, and that the Federal Civil Defense Administration can be represented in your agencies ; is that correct?

Mr. ROLLAND. Yes, sir.

Senator KENNEDY. And you feel that it will not present an impossible task to decide the priorities between civil defense and education and health

Mr. ROLLAND. In my personal opinion, I don't believe there would be any problem on that in Florida. We handle it for health and education; ; there has been no conflict so far.

The institutions come in and screen the properties available and select what they need for their own respective requirements. We have had no conflict.

Senator KENNEDY. Do you favor this bill?
Mr. ROLLAND. In its intent and purpose; yes, sir.

Senator KENNEDY. As it is drafted, with the exception of the three points you have made?

Mr. ROLLAND. Yes, sir. (Mr. Rolland later submitted a letter for insertion in the record. (See p. 66.)).

Senator KENNEDY. Do you have anything additional?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. I am not sure I heard correctly, but if I understood correctly, was there a suggestion by Mr. Rolland for channeling all of the property to a State surplus distribution agency, a single one in each State, rather than have direct Federal-State relationships?

That is now in the bill, as I read it. It is on page 2, lines 15 to 20,

and it says:

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No such property shall be transferred for use within any State except to the State agency designated under State law for the purpose of distributing, in conformity with the provisions of this subsection, all property allocated under this subsection for use within such State.

In other words, no property would be directly distributed under this section, as I read it, directly by a Federal agency to a donee; it would have to go to a State surplus property distribution agency.

One other point I would like to make is on the question of State law or Executive order.

The bill on page 2, line 17, doesn't say "by State law”; it says "under State law.” And as we interpret that, that would mean either by the terms of a State statute or by the terms of whatever administrative order the governor, let us say, may promulgate, under the authority that he has, pursuant to State law.

We now interpret the phase “by State law,” in section 203 (j) as it is today, exactly that way.

Mr. SHRIVER. In connection with the first point that you raised, Mr. Ellenbogen, your thought is that the interpretation of the language on page 2 is that no property will be distributed except through a single State agency. Is that correct?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Yes, sir; except for a transition period.
Mr. SHRIVER. As provided in section 5?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Yes. That is to take care of the fact that youwe don't know whether it is a fact, but there may be 1 or 2 States, or perhaps more, that will have to move to establish a statewide overall surplus property distribution agency, and the bill is so written as not to deny that interim opportunity of the State to get property, so long as it does that in due course.

Mr. SHRIVER. Now, in connection with the second comment you made and this was in connection with the insertion of the words, "executive order," on page 2, and the changes on page 5 and 7-your feeling is that the phrase "under State law” encompasses "executive order," or any other order of legal authority?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. That is true. It is even clearer than under existing law.

We now interpret the phrase "designated by State law” to include designations under Executive order; this bill is even clearer. But if the subcommittee wishes to make it explicit, I see no objection, except that some governor might do it some other way than by Executive order.

Senator KENNEDY. Thank you for coming.

Would Mr. George Mullins, of the Bureau of the Budget, and Mr. Robert Keller, of the General Accounting Office, step forward a moment.

It is my understanding, gentlemen, that you do not have prepared statements, but you would be glad to answer any questions.

Mr. Keller, as I understand it, the General Accounting Office has no objection!

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