The question here presented is this: Which election-the primary, the November election, or the election by the legislature-is the election "held to fill such office"? The primary-election law is entitled "An act to provide for party nominations by direct vote." The primary is not an election for the purpose of filling an office. It is an election for the purpose of choosing party candidates, and no offices except precinct committees are filled at the primary. The November election is not an election held to fill the office of United States Senator. That office is not filled until an election is held in the legislature.

I am, therefore, of the opinion that you are correct in your understanding that a candidate for the office of United States Senator is not required to file an account of his expenses in the primary campaign until after the election by the legislature in January.

Very truly, yours,

F. L. GILBERT, Attorney General.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I desire to read now two letters from a letter-press copy book, the first letter in which is dated February 3, 1905, and the last letter in which is dated July 1, 1909. This is Senator Stephenson's personal letter-press copy book.

The first letter that I want to put into the record reads as follows, and is found on page 807 of this letter book:

Hon. J. A. FREAR,

Secretary of State, Madison, Wis.

MARINETTE, Wis., September 23, 1906.

DEAR SIR: I have not received any blanks for filing expenditures in senatorial canvass for nomination at the primary. Will you kindly send me some at once? What is the law in this matter, and when must I file my papers in order to comply with the law? Kindly post me in the matter.

Yours, truly,

P. S.-Please let me know what the law is in my case. I do not have to report until the legislature acts.

ISAAO STEPHENSON.

I have been told that

I. S.

Under the same date, on page 808, immediately following, on the next page, is the following:

Hon. FRANK L. GILBERT,

Attorney General, Madison, Wis.

MARINETTE, WIS., September 23, 1908.

DEAR SIR: I understand that a candidate for the U. S. Senate is not, under the law, obliged to file expense account until after the legislature elects in January. Kindly let me hear from you regarding this law.

Yours, truly,

ISAAC STEPHENSON.

The attorney general's letter, as I understand it, was in answer to this inquiry.

Senator POMERENE. Was there a reply to the letter to the secretary of state?

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I have not seen any. I do not know whether there was or not. Do you remember whether there was, Senator? Senator STEPHENSON. I do not remember.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I do not know how that may be.

Senator POMERENE. I thought if there was it might be well to put it in and make the record complete.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. The Senator says he does not remember. I do not know how it was.

At 5 o'clock and 4 minutes p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, October 3, 1911, at 10 o'clock a. m.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1911.

FEDERAL BUILDING,
Milwaukee, Wis.

The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a. m.
Present: Senators Heyburn (chairman), Sutherland, and Pome-

rene.

Present also: Mr. C. E. Littlefield, Mr. W. E. Black, and Mr. H. H. J. Upham, counsel for Senator Isaac Stephenson.

TESTIMONY OF E. A. EDMONDS-Continued.

E. A. EDMONDS, the witness under examination at the time of adjournment yesterday, resumed the stand and testified as follows: The CHAIRMAN. Before adjournment yesterday you were requested to make some examination of an expense account. Have you done so? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say now?

Mr. EDMONDS. I believe I was asked to check over Exhibit 49 in the senatorial primary investigation and pick out such items as I have some recollection of.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, now, and state the items and what your recollection of them is in regard to their payment and the purposes for which they were paid.

Mr. EDMONDS. In some instances I have quite a distinct recollection, and in others some recollection.

The CHAIRMAN. Pick out the items and state your recollection.

Mr. EDMONDS. The item of $200, July 18, Dane County, organizing. That item is found on page 588 of the printed record of the senatorial investigation, in Exhibit 49. This was the first money, I believe, paid to Mr. Ames, our organizer in Dane County.

The CHAIRMAN. I asked you about that item yesterday. What further recollection have you to-day than that which you had yesterday? Mr. EDMONDS. None, except that he was employed by me to look after the interests of Senator Stephenson and organize in Dane County. The special organizing that he was to do was left largely to his judgment, since he was represented to me as a man well known in the county and well acquainted with the conditions there.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a distinct recollection of that employment, have you?

Mr. EDMONDS. I have a distinct recollection of meeting Mr. Ames and employing him for that purpose; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I will examine yesterday's record to see how fully we went into that.

Mr. EDMONDS. He was paid, at different times, amounts as called for.

Mr. BLACK. What is the date of that item?

Mr. EDMONDS. July 18, on page 588. It is on page 588 of the printed record of the primary investigation.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any clear recollection this morning as to the conversation that was had between you and Mr. Ames when you paid him the money, as to the purpose for which it was to be expended?

Mr. EDMONDS. As to how he should organize?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; the conversation.

Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir; I could not recall the conversation. I do remember that Mr. Ames was one of the first men who came in, and with whom I made arrangements for county organization; and I remember that I did not know at that time how far to go into the organizing-how far our funds would permit us to go into the organizing of counties; into how great detail. I remember he asked the question in inquiring what it would cost or in answer to my inquiry as to what it would cost him to organize that county-he asked whether I wanted him to go into each precinct and get a list and organize thoroughly or do what he could without going to that added expense, and that was left open for some little time as I recall.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Finish your statement as to whether it was ever concluded with him. Did you ever have any further talk with him? That is, clean that subject right up.

Mr. EDMONDS. At a later time it was decided that we would not organize so completely as that because it would cost too much.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. What would that detailed organization involve? Explain that to the committee-that detailed organization that you decided you had not funds enough to go into.

Mr. EDMONDS. Well, I do not know that the suggestion was made by him as to how great detail we should go into.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I know, but you know the details.

Mr. EDMONDS. My idea of a detailed organization is a pretty expensive proposition.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Explain what the details are.

Mr. EDMONDS. I should want in each town at least three men, and those men to look after the expenditure of such funds as were necessary, or those men to be employed rather to do the work necessary— advertising, distributing posters, looking after

The CHAIRMAN. Before proceeding to the cross-examination I should like to conclude my question. I did not have the book before me when I asked the question, but I have it now. Referring now to the page and item that you are considering, what is it?

Mr. EDMONDS. It is the seventh item on page 588, Dane County organizing.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of the party to whom you paid that money?

Mr. EDMONDS. A. R. Ames.

The CHAIRMAN. Did Mr. Ames render you a statement of the purposes for which the money had been expended?

Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ask him to?

Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see him again during the campaign after you had given him this money to expend?

Mr. EDMONDS. I think I saw him during the campaign at two or three different times.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you discuss the use that had been made of the money?

Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you inquire of him at any time what use he had made of this $200, or how much of it he had expended?

Mr. EDMONDS. I am not certain as to whether I did or not. When he would come in we would talk over the situation in that county. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by the "situation"?

Mr. EDMONDS. As to how the Republican voters who would probably get out to the polls felt as to the election of Senator Stephenson, whether a majority of them, or a plurality of them, would be for the Senator or not. Whether he thought it would be advisable

The CHAIRMAN. You gave him this money on July 18. That was while you were yet securing names to the petition for the nomination of Senator Stephenson, was it?

Mr. EDMONDS. I do not recall.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether he used this money for that purpose or not?

Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is he now?

Mr. EDMONDS. In Madison, I believe. He was the last time I knew. The CHAIRMAN. What is his business?

Mr. EDMONDS. I think he is a real estate man.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen him recently?
Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then at no time have you had any knowledge as to the use made of this money? Is that true?

Mr. EDMONDS. Except in a general way; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What knowledge did you have in a general way? Mr. EDMONDS. Just as I have said. When he would come in-he came in at two different times, I think, after this, either two or three-and I paid him on the amount that I had agreed to pay him, and at that time we would talk over the situation, but I do not recall just what was said.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understood you in regard to a former question which I asked you, the conversation was merely as to the general political condition or sentiment in regard to Senator Stephenson. Would you call that services for which you would pay money

?

Mr. EDMONDS. I certainly did not call him in to inquire, and have him make a definite statement as to why he had expended any money; but I have no doubt that in our conversation something of that kind was mentioned.

The CHAIRMAN. But you have no recollection?

Mr. EDMONDS. I have no recollection, no, sir, as to what was said. The CHAIRMAN. It would have been quite natural, would it not, for you to have asked him to what purpose he was devoting this money?

Mr. EDMONDS. Certainly, it would.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ask any of these men to whom you gave money during the campaign what use they were making of it?

Mr. EDMONDS. I am not certain that in any particular instance I called a man in and said, "What have you been doing with that money?" But I am sure that after I gave a man money to conduct the campaign in his county whenever I saw him after that and there was opportunity to discuss what was being done with it, certainly I tried to keep track of affairs.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you admonish these men when you gave them money that they were to keep within the law in its expenditure or use?

Mr. EDMONDS. I do not recall that I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Never on any occasion?

Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know that I ever did. I did not employ men who

The CHAIRMAN. What did you tell them you were giving them money for?

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. What did you say that you "did not employ

Mr. EDMONDS. I did not employ men whom I thought it was necessary to caution in those matters. The men who were employed by me were in almost every instance men who were better acquainted with politics and the political situation in their counties than I, and they were men who knew the law as well or better, probably, than I.

The CHAIRMAN. I was trying to get at facts rather than your judgment in regard to the method of conducting the campaign. I will resubmit that question. When you paid out these sums of money to men to organize, as you term it, did you have any conversation with them in regard to the manner of the expenditures to be made?

Mr. EDMONDS. I do not now recall that I did in any partcular instance.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you interest yourself to know as to the manner of the expenditure to be made?

Mr. EDMONDS. I most assuredly did.

The CHAIRMAN. Or the character of it, rather?

Mr. EDMONDS. I most assuredly talked the matter over with them when they were employed.

The CHAIRMAN. I just understood you to say that you did not. I will resubmit that question. I want a definite answer. When you gave money to these several men for the purposes of organization, did you have a conversation with them in which you admonished them or discussed with them the manner of the expenditure to be made or the character of the expenditure to be made?

Mr. EDMONDS. You are asking me a question that I do not know that I can answer.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a most important question.

Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. There is no question but that in employing a man I talked with him about what he was to do, and he discussed the situation with me; but in almost every instance

Senator POMERENE. Are you simply reasoning this out, or are you giving your memory about it?

Mr. EDMONDS. I have told you that I do not remember to have in any particular instance given definite instructions.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, are we to understand that you paid out these large sums of money without stating any restrictions as to the character of the expenditure?

Mr. EDMONDS. I would not make that statement; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have you make a statement on that subject. It is material.

Mr. EDMONDS. I am endeavoring to recall some particular instance and what was said, but I can not do that. I know that in employing a man and in turning over to him any sum of money for the purpose of organizing in his community, I certainly went over the situation with him as thoroughly as I could in the limited time.