Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Have you any doubt that you read that statement of Mr. Stone's, so far as it related to you, when it came out in the newspaper, the first time it came out? Mr. KINGSLEY. Have I any doubt whether I read it? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Yes. Mr. KINGSLEY. No; I have not. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you not know that you read it the morning it came out? Mr. KINGSLEY. I could not say exactly whether I did or did not. I might have read it that day or the next day. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Have you any doubt about it, Mr. Kingsley? Mr. KINGSLEY. I read about it. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Have you any doubt you read it the first day it came out? Mr. KINGSLEY. I could not say when I read it. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You could not say? Mr. KINGSLEY. No. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. And the effort you made to rehabilitate yourself was to simply tell your friends that you did not get the money? That was all, was it not-that is, if what you said is true, that the only effort you made to rehabilitate yourself was to tell your friends that you did not get the money? Mr. KINGSLEY. I told them that. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is all you did tell them? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You did not make any reference to the "frame up," you say? Mr. KINGSLEY. No, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you wish the committee to understand that you were very earnest and insistent that these facts connected with the "frame up" should be disclosed before the joint investigating committee? Do you wish them to understand that? Mr. KINGSLEY. I do not understand your question. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you wish the committee to understand that you were anxious to have the information in relation to that "frame up" conveyed to the joint investigating committee of the Wisconsin Legislature? Mr. KINGSLEY. I was ready to testify to that fact. Mr. LittlefielD. Do you understand the question I asked you? Mr. KINGSLEY. I think I do. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. If you do, please be kind enough to answer it. I ask if you were anxious. Do you know what that word means? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I ask you, now, if you were anxious that the Wisconsin legislative committee should have the knowledge in relation to that "frame up"? Were you or were you not; or do you not know? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes; I was. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Then, if you were, why did you not tell some body about it? Mr. KINGSLEY. It had already been told. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. It had already been developed Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. In testimony? Mr. KINGSLEY. I do not know whether it was in testimony. I understand that one of the Senators had the information. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You were anxious to give the information, and the reason you did not carry out that anxiety was because they had already been told. Is that it? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. When did you first learn that they had been told? Was it before you testified? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Who told you? Mr. KINGSLEY. I was told by Senator Morris. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He told you that they knew all about it? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Did you tell him that you knew all about it? Mr. KINGSLEY. I did not say one way or the other. He told me that the committee knew all about the meeting and the whole busi ness. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is, before you testified? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Did he ask you if you knew anything about the meeting? Mr. KINGSLEY. All I said was, "Is that so?" Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He did not ask if you knew anything about that? Senator POMERENE. Who was this, who said he knew all about it? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Senator Morris, one of the members of the investigating committee; a member on the part of the senate. Senator Marsh, Senator Morris, and Senator Husting were the three senate members. Senator POMERENE. Thank you. I missed that in your question. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I want to ask you one more question. This testimony that you gave and these acts that you performed in connection with the "frameup" were all in the city of Madison? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Have you ever been prosecuted for conspiring to commit perjury? Mr. KINGSLEY. No, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Have any of the other distinguished gentlemen who were present on the occasion of that "frame up" been prosecuted for conspiring to commit perjury? Mr. KINGSLEY. Not that I know of. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you know the name of the district attorney of that county in January and February, 1909 ? Mr. KINGSLEY. I do not. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You do not know who it was? Mr. KINGSLEY. No, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you know whether he lives in the city of Madison? Mr. KINGSLEY. That I could not say. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is all. Senator SUTHERLAND. Mr. Kingsley, do you remember testifying before the legislative committee? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Senator SUTHERLAND. Do you remember giving this testimony: By Mr. BRAY: Q. I suppose after this meeting it was understood that nothing was to be said about that meeting at Stone's house, wasn't it?-A. Yes, sir. You testified to that, did you? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Senator SUTHERLAND. And it was true? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Senator SUTHERLAND (reading): Q. When did you first hear about it after that?—A. Well, in what way do you mean, Mr. Bray? Q. How did the story get out?-A. Why, I was subpoenaed, and told to come to Madison; and I came here on a Thursday night, if I remember right. I reported to the chairman of the committee, and I met Senator Morris on the stairway. I shook hands with him, and walked up in his office and sat down, and he told me that they knew all about it. Mr. HAMBRECHT. Q. Knew all about what?-A. Knew all about the meeting, and I didn't say anything. He said-I don't know just exactly how he said it--but "A certain party has told the whole business." Q. In other words, you didn't tell it?-A. No, sir; I didn't. I want it distinctly understood I didn't tell. Mr. HAMBRECHT. Q. Do you know who did tell? Did Senator Morris say who told him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was it?-A. I would rather have Senator Morris tell that, unless I am compelled to answer it. Q. I would like to have you answer it.-A. He said Mr. Richtman told about it. Q: Why didn't you want to tell about it?-A. Nobody had asked me to tell about it. Q. Did you think that was a proper thing to do?-A. I don't understand now what you mean. Q. Did you think that was a proper thing to do, to keep silent when Mr. Stone was going to say you had received money, when it wasn't true?-A. When I took that on my shoulders the understanding was I was not to be subpoenaed, or to be on the stand to perjure myself. Q. If you were subpoenaed and were put on the stand, you would have told the truth? A. I certainly would. You gave that testimony; did you? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Senator SUTHERLAND. And that was true? Mr. KINGSLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. We have nothing further, if the chairman please. The CHAIRMAN. That is all. TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. BLAINE. Mr. BLAINE, having been heretofore duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Blaine, do you at this time hold any public office? Mr. BLAINE. I do. The CHAIRMAN. What office? Mr. BLAINE. State senator from the sixteenth district of Wisconsin. The CHAIRMAN. When did your present term commence, and when does it expire? Mr. BLAINE. My term commenced in January, 1909, and expires in January, 1913. Senator POMERENE. Four years? Mr. BLAINE. Four years. The CHAIRMAN. Were you holding any public office during the year 1908? Mr. BLAINE. I was not. The CHAIRMAN. So that your official status began January 1, 1909 ? Mr. BLAINE. It is not January 1. I think it is the first Wednesday after the second Tuesday in January. The CHAIRMAN. That is the time you were sworn in? Mr. BLAINE. The time I was sworn in. The CHAIRMAN. What time were you elected? Mr. BLAINE. At the general election in November, 1908. The CHAIRMAN. Were you nominated at a direct-primary election? Mr. BLAINE. I was nominated at a direct-primary election in September, 1908. The CHAIRMAN. On September 1, 1908? Mr. BLAINE. I believe it was September 1. The CHAIRMAN. As a member of the State Senate of Wisconsin, in the session commencing in January, 1909, you participated in the investigation of charges against Senator Stephenson, affecting his election, did you? Mr. BLAINE. I presented a substitute resolution and certain charges. The CHAIRMAN. You filed specific charges, did you? Mr. BLAINE. What were known as specific charges, and have been referred to as specific charges. The CHAIRMAN. In the copy of the proceedings sent to the United States Senate by the Governor of Wisconsin they are designated 'specific charges." Were they so designated in the document that you filed? Mr. BLAINE. I can tell by referring to the document. I do not remember. The CHAIRMAN. I will read the language, on page 4: Resolved, That such committee shall report to the senate and assembly in full upon such matters with the evidence and their recommendations thereon on or before the 1st day of April, 1909. The resolution was introduced by Senator Blaine. Then follow specific charges. Mr. BLAINE. Yes; they were designated as specific charges. The CHAIRMAN. We will take up those charges for consideration; and I will read them and interrogate you in regard to them as we go along. First: To the honorable Senate and Assembly of the State of Wisconsin: I, John J. Blaine, an elector of the State of Wisconsin and a member of the State senate, upon information and belief, do hereby specifically charge and allege: 1. That Isaac Stephenson, of Marinette, Wis., now United States Senator and a candidate for reelection, did, as such candidate for such reelection, give to one E. A. Edmonds, of the city of Appleton, Wis., then an elector of the State of Wisconsin and said city of Appleton, a valuable thing, to wit: a sum of money in excess of $106,000, and approximating the sum of $250,000, as a consideration for some act to be done by said E. A. Edmonds in relation to the primary election held on the 1st day of September, 1908, which consideration was paid prior to said primary election, and that said Isaac Stephenson was at the time of such payment a candidate for the Republican nomination for United States Senator at such primary, and did by such acts as above set forth violate section 4542b of the statutes. You made that specific charge? Mr. BLAINE. I did. The CHAIRMAN. Upon what did you base it? Mr. BLAINE. Upon the information gained from E. A. Edmonds. The CHAIRMAN. Upon what was your belief based? Mr. BLAINE. Upon the information gained from E. A. Edmonds. 15235°-VOL 1--11-38 The CHAIRMAN. Was it made upon any other information or belief than that which you had from Mr. Edmonds? Mr. BLAINE. Only generally in reference to the conduct of the campaign, as I have The CHAIRMAN. When you use the term "generally," do you refer to any specific person or act? Mr. BLAINE. I refer to specific persons and specific acts. The CHAIRMAN. What persons? Mr. BLAINE. Those mentioned in the subsequent charges. Mr. BLAINE. And from speeches that had been made by public men in the State. The CHAIRMAN. What public men? Mr. BLAINE. Mr. John A. Aylward, candidate for governor on the Democratic ticket. The CHAIRMAN. Upon what speech or speeches that had been made by Mr. Aylward did you rely? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Just one moment, if the chairman please. I would suggest this: I think it is perfectly proper to inquire about the sources; but we wish to object, if the chairman please, to Mr. Blaine's stating anything that may have been said by these various people. I have no doubt the names given will give the subcommittee sources of information. But, for instance The CHAIRMAN. I think counsel perhaps misapprehends the question. The question is what he acted upon, not what somebody else acted upon. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is true; that may be. But even if he acted upon what turns out to be pure hearsay, it seems to me we ought not to have it in the record for the purpose of embarrassing the Senator, if it does. It may be in a class entirely different, if the chairman please, from statements made by Mr. Edmonds. I suppose the bcommittee would feel that Mr. Edmonds was Mr. Stephenson's manager; and the theory would be that whatever Mr. Edmonds said, he said perhaps when he was acting as the agent of Senator Stephenson. But Mr. Aylward was the Democratic candidate for a man with whom the Senator had no connection whatgovernor ever; and I suppose whatever he said may have been in the nature of some political charge. That would be clearly hearsay. Of course, I have no objection to the witness giving the names of the people; but it does not seem to me that he ought to be allowed to put into the record what these various people may have said, because to my mind that is clearly hearsay. The CHAIRMAN. If this witness made a specific charge against Senator Stephenson, based upon anything, it is proper to know what that thing was, even though it may prove to afford no basis for such belief or for such statement. It does not charge Senator Stephenson with anything to show that this man made a statement based upon unsubstantial grounds. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. No. I make this objection early because I want if possible, if the chairman please, to keep the record clear of what we all know to be hearsay testimony. I do not think the subcommittee desires to get it in. The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee will not receive the statements of these men as evidence of anything. They will be received merely |