Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I presume we all agree that while the duties of the committee are, of course, inquisitorial, there is a limit to the exercise of that duty, and I would like to have the committee feel that I have not the slightest disposition to even indirectly criticize the duty suggested by the Senator as the reason for the ruling.

Senator SUTHERLAND. I have suggested there was a limit by saying that if there be a fair doubt as to the admissibility of any testimony, that doubt should be resolved in favor of admitting it.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I am not disposed to complain of that ruling. I think that is a perfectly proper attitude for the committee to assume, for the reason stated, that if you do exclude it and it turns out to be important, you have done an irreparable wrong; but if it is admitted, and it is an error, that testimony can be disregarded.

Senator POMERENE. Just one word. I felt this morning during the very able argument that was presented to us that the scope which counsel was disposed to give to the committee under this resolution was too limited. The Constitution of the United States provides that the Senate shall be the judge of the election and qualifications of its members. The resolution which was adopted provides, in effect, that because certain charges of corruption have been made this committee is instructed to inquire into the election of the Senator from Wisconsin. It seems to me we ought to construe that in connection with the provision of the Constitution rather than in connection with the resolution that was passed by the General Assembly of the State of Wisconsin. The investigation, it seems to me, must apply to those means which were adopted in securing the title to the Senatorship from this State, and for that reason it seems to me that this committee would subject itself to the grossest kind of criticism if it were to attempt to limit its inquiry to things which may have occurred after the legislature was elected.

When I make this statement I do not mean to be understood, of course, as prejudging in any sense the weight which is to be attached to these evidentiary facts. The charge, in effect, is corruption and fraud. As lawyers we know that many things may be badges of fraud or may not be and may be entirely innocent. We must reach our conclusion after all of the evidence is in. We decide now simply that certain testimony is admissible. We determine later the weight that is to be attached to that testimony.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I think the Senator states the situation very accurately and clearly. Perhaps I ought to make this further suggestion in connection with the general proposition-and I hope the discussion will prove at least instructive and perhaps valuable to enable the committee to more accurately appreciate the weight of evidence on these various propositions.

As to the effect of the primary itself, our contention is that every dollar of the one hundred and seven thousand and odd dollars expended was expended solely and only for the nomination of Senator Stephenson in the primary, and that not a dollar of it can be said in any proper sense to have been contributed either to the nomination or election of any member of the legislature. Of course, if that is established, that is a significant fact. That is our contention.

To be frank about it, I ought to say that there is something in the record that tends to indicate that there might be a claim that some money that was furnished to a Mr. Reynolds, a candidate for the

legislature, a Mr. Wellensgard, and a Mr. Bancroft may not be within the statement which I have made. That is, there may be a contention respecting it. There is something in the record that shows that in connection with some other candidates who were not elected there was some money distributed and used by them. Of course, our contention is that all of this was used for and to promote the interests of Senator Stephenson, and as to those who were not elected the matter is not of any consequence, because their votes would not be counted, as they would not be cast. I would like to have the committee have this particular phase of the matter in their minds as we go along. I think that covers the whole ground.

I understand, then, the objection is overruled and the motion is denied.

The CHAIRMAN. In connection with the ruling that has been made and the comments of the committee, I desire to call attention to a part of the official record, upon which we are called upon to act, in order that there may be no mistake about the scope of the committee's ruling. On page 26 and page 27, in this paper certified to the Senate by the governor of Wisconsin

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Is that the Senate document?

The CHAIRMAN. It was printed as a Senate document, but it is a part of the official record in this case, made so by a reference. To resume, on pages 26 and 27 of this document, it appears that certain members at the time they voted in the legislature for Senator Stephenson stated that they did so under protest, claiming to do so only because he had been nominated at the primary.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Then I understand that the formal record will show that my objection is overruled and the motion denied.

The CHAIRMAN. The record will show what has occurred.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Of course, the chairman will see that all I desire to do is to have the record consistent all the way through so that these questions may be presented to whomsoever may hereafter have occasion to examine the record.

The CHAIRMAN. The ordinary procedure in regard to exceptions would not apply to a hearing before a committee. It is only necessary to note the objection and the ruling.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Precisely, and that is the way I understood it. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will ask Senator Stephenson to resume the stand.

TESTIMONY OF ISAAC STEPHENSON-Resumed.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will ask the reporter to repeat the last question which was put to Senator Stephenson before the recess. The reporter read as follows:

State as to which of these items, if any, you have personal knowledge. The CHAIRMAN. I was referring. Senator Stephenson, to the items in the account which you had filed. You stated that you had personal knowledge only as to a part of them. State as to which of these items. Have you a copy of them before you?

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I think the Chair will have to hand them to the witness. You refer now to the return per se? My impression is that they are grouped in such a way that he can not tell much about it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I want to know. State as to which of these items you have any personal knowledge.

Senator POMERENE. Let the record show that the witness is referring now to Exhibit 1.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. To what appears in Exhibit 1, if I may be permitted to add that to the question.

Senator STEPHENSON. I have not any knowledge of

The CHAIRMAN. Of any item?

Senator STEPHENSON. No, sir; only as far as getting the names are concerned for my nomination papers.

The CHAIRMAN. You referred to the item of $225.06 for getting signatures to nomination papers.

Senator STEPHENSON. Well, that I know something about.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that paid, that item of $225.06, for getting signatures to nomination_papers?

Senator STEPHENSON. TO Mr. Peterson and Mr. Reynolds.
Senator POMERENE. Give their full names, if you please.

Senator STEPHENSON. Thomas Reynolds and Mr. Peterson. I do not know his initials. Then there was a Frenchman. What is the name of the Frenchman?

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is your memorandum. That shows the details as far as you can give them. Of course, the committee will notice that I am assisting the witness somewhat, but if that is not agreeable to the committee all it has to do is to indicate it.

Senator STEPHENSON. A. H. Settersten, $26.10; Stronach, $26; Fred Hutchinson, $25; McAllister, $110.50; cash to Reynolds, $180; cash, Alfred Greenwood, $125.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Just one moment, please. It is very obvious that Senator Stephenson, in making the detailed answer that he has, has lost the purport of the question, because some of the items that he has given have no relation whatever to obtaining signatures.

The CHAIRMAN. I think his answer is germane to the question. The question was to whom was the $225.06 paid. He has stated that it was paid to E. J. McAllister, T. Reynolds, Alfred Greenwood, and Fred Hutchinson.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. As a matter of fact, the Greenwood payment was not for that purpose at all.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would suggest to counsel that the matter of fact ought to be developed by the testimony of the witness. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. The items that you have given amount to more than the sum of $225.06. In your statement made before the legislative committee, in regard to the checks and sums paid, you say that you paid Fred Hutchinson, through Ludington Co., $25. That, you say, was for obtaining signatures to the nomination papers.

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; as far as I recollect.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you paid E. J. McAllister $110.50, and that that was also for obtaining signatures to your nomination papers. Senator STEPHENSON. I think there is a little question about that. I think he went over into Oconto County and saw some of his friends— to vote for me, I guess. That is what I think.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you would eliminate that item of $110?
Senator STEPHENSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You say "Cash to T. Reynolds, $180." Do you charge that to obtaining signatures to your nomination papers?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All of it?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; because he got some others. He did not make any charge, but I gave him that money.

The CHAIRMAN. When you gave him that money was he a candidate for the legislature?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; that is, I did not know that he was at the time. I did not, but he was a candidate and was elected.

The CHAIRMAN. Shortly after you gave him the $80 of that money you knew that he was a candidate for the legislature?

Senator STEPHENSON. No; I was not sure at the time I gave him the first $80. I gave him that in currency, out of my pocket. I asked him to get me some names and to employ others, and I afterwards sent him $100 because he was a poor man and employed others, and he was an honorable man and he would not have made any charges, and I gave it to him because he is a high-minded, splendid man.

The CHAIRMAN. At the time you gave him $100 you did know that he was a candidate for the legislature, did you not?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; that was given not by me directly, but by my secretary; sent to him in currency.

The CHAIRMAN. By your instructions?

Senator STEPHENSON. I am not so sure about that. I would not say whether I instructed him or not.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you testified on a former occasion that you knew shortly after you gave him the $80 that he was a candidate, did you not?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that you instructed that the $100 be sent him subsequently and that at the time you gave that instruction you knew that he was an active candidate for the legislature; is that true? Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; but I gave it to him for names which he labored to get and employed several others to get them, and for nothing else, because I knew it was against the law to give a man running for the legislature any money. I knew that was against the law, but I gave it to him for getting those names originally.

The CHAIRMAN. How many names did he get?

Senator STEPHENSON. That I could not tell you. I got a lot of names, more than was necessary, perhaps.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he do other work for you or in your behalf in regard to your nomination than to procure the names?

Senator STEPHENSON. I do not know. I can not say that. He is a friend of mine-good, true man. I suppose he wanted to see me win; I presume so, but I do not know that.

The CHAIRMAN. In the case of Alfred Greenwood, you gave him $125, according to your statement?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. For what was that sum given?

Senator STEPHENSON. He went into Kewaunee County and others. He is a poor cripple and had been in our town for years, a Frenchman-dead now-and I sent him twice to Mount Clemens, years before that, for his rheumatism

The CHAIRMAN. Let us, in the interest of time, confine ourselves to the payment of this sum of money, Senator. Senator STEPHENSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he do for the $125?

Senator STEPHENSON. He went to Kewaunee and got names.
The CHAIRMAN. How many names did he get?

Senator STEPHENSON. I could not tell you that.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the basis upon which you fixed the sum of $125?

Senator STEPHENSON. Not any. I gave him that partly out of charity, as well as for getting names, because I had been giving him money right along for a good many years.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he a candidate for any office?

Senator STEPHENSON. No.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Who is this? Greenwood?

The CHAIRMAN. Greenwood.

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes-poor fellow.

The CHAIRMAN. You gave $250 to H. L. Bancroft, too; for what was that given?

Senator STEPHENSON. As far as I know, it was for names, and nothing else.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember when you gave Mr. Bancroft that money?

Senator STEPHENSON. No; I can not tell now.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it before the primary election?

Senator STEPHENSON. Before or during; I can not tell.

The CHAIRMAN. It would probably be "during" if it was "before." Mr. Bancroft was a member of the assembly, was he not? Senator STEPHENSON. Afterwards elected; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. At that same election?

Senator STEPHENSON. Yes; became speaker, too.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Elected speaker?

Senator STEPHENSON. He was elected speaker.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know at the time you gave him the $250 that he was a candidate?

Senator STEPHENSON. No; I did not.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do I understand the record shows Senator Stephenson gave him $500?

The CHAIRMAN. The $250. You will find that at page 721 of the proceedings of the joint committee.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. What? That Mr. Stephenson gave it to Bancroft?

The CHAIRMAN. I would prefer that the counsel would just turn to the page.

Senator STEPHENSON. No; I did not give him the

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I knew you did not.

Mr. BLACK. I understand that the chairman is inquiring as to personal expenditures by Mr. Stephenson. The $250 was paid to Mr. Bancroft by Mr. Puelicher, the record shows, not by Mr. Stephenson. The CHAIRMAN. I think we had better just let the facts be developed and use them afterwards.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Yes. What page does the chairman have?
The CHAIRMAN. Page 721, joint committee; that is, the senate.
Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The reference is to the four volumes. That is the joint committee; the other is the senate. I think, unless it is bound differently, counsel has the senate investigation.