Mr. SACKET. Those items would undoubtedly be included in that $46.000. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, that does not include the procuring of names to the petition for the primary nomination, does it? Mr. SACKET. It might include some of those expenditures. The CHAIRMAN. Well, does it? Mr. SACKET. I think it does. The CHAIRMAN. You made it up. Mr. SACKET. I think it does. The CHAIRMAN. How much of it is in that class? Mr. SACKET. I could not say. The CHAIRMAN. In your summary you have here "nomination papers, $40.86." What item is that?" Mr. SACKET. That is a number of bills that were sent to our office by men to whom we sent blanks by mail; men who sent in and demanded payment for their services in circulating those papers; so that that item is clearly for nomination papers and nothing else. A great many of our organizers also attended to the getting of nomination papers. The money given to them would be charged in this $46,000 item. The CHAIRMAN. I notice that all of these items for organizing-and the greater part of them are for organizing-are after the time when you had filed the petitions with the signatures on them. Mr. SACKET. My idea of organizing, as I used it in this statement, might include circulating of petitions, or any other work to perfect the organization which we hoped to use for the election of Senator Stephenson. The CHAIRMAN. Would it include the distribution and payment of money to men who were to work at the polls? Mr. SACKET. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Would it include the payment of money to men who were to induce other men to vote for Senator Stephenson, without any limitation being placed upon the manner of inducement? Mr. SACKET. It would include money expended in that way; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. It might include money expended in purchasing votes, might it? Mr. SACKET. It might. The CHAIRMAN. Did it? Mr. SACKET. Not to my knowledge. The CHAIRMAN. Can you say it did not. Mr. SACKET. No, sir; not of my own knowledge. The CHAIRMAN. You have no memorandum that would even guide you to a conclusion, have you? Mr. SACKET. I do not think I would be able to keep one. The CHAIRMAN. And you never made a memorandum that would? Mr. SACKET. No, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is, a memorandum that would show the purchase of a vote? Mr. SACKET. No, sir. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I suppose not. The CHAIRMAN. So that "organizing" after August 2 does not include the obtaining of signatures to the petitions? Mr. SACKET. The items entered after the 2d of August might be payment for services rendered earlier. The CHAIRMAN. Will you turn to Exhibit 47, on page 476, and tell me what the items on August 4 of $1,000 to Douglas County, $1,300 to La Crosse, and $1,300 to Vilas, Oneida, and Lincoln Counties were for? What were they paid for? Mr. SACKET. From that statement I could not tell. The CHAIRMAN. Have you any memoranda from which you can tell? Mr. SACKET. The subsequent exhibit, 49, would throw some light on that subject. The CHAIRMAN. Just transfer that light to us, please. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Turn on the light. That is the statement beginning on page 588. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I have it. Which one? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. August 4. Mr. SACKET. That, I believe, shows the check numbers, and the persons to whom the amounts were paid. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. On the bottom of page 589. The CHAIRMAN. That merely shows that you paid it by cashier's check with a given number to S. S. Perrin. Mr. SACKET. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Now, that was for organization prior to the time of the filing of the petitions, so that would include any expense for getting the petitions, would it not? Mr. SACKET. I have no absolute personal knowledge of these items that you refer to. I did not make the arrangements with any of these gentlemen. The CHAIRMAN. Who did? Mr. SACKET. Mr. Edmonds. The CHAIRMAN. George Gordon received $1,300 on the same day for some purpose. What purpose was it? Mr. SACKET. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Who would know? Mr. SACKET. Mr. Edmonds. The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Edmonds in the court room? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He was here a few moments ago, but he stated to me that he was just going out. The CHAIRMAN. I requested him to remain here until he was excused. The importance of complying with that request is obvious at this time. The sergeant at arms will call Mr. Edmonds into the court room. He was instructed to go over this statement and point out certain items. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I think what he was trying to give to the committee was a statement of what portions of these sums were paid for services. That is my recollection. The CHAIRMAN. He was also to furnish information as to items of which he had personal knowledge. I will pass these items until Mr. Edmonds has checked them up. Mr. Sacket, will you go through this statement of yours between now and the meeting of the committee to-morrow, and pick out the items of which you have personal knowledge? Mr. SACKET. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In regard to the purpose for which the expenditure was made; or rather, to put it more plainly, of which you have knowledge as to the nature of the expenditure that was made. Mr. SACKET. Would you consider that I had knowledge of the nature of it if I had directed a man to expend it in a certain way, and not in certain other ways? The CHAIRMAN. The way to answer that is to give such information as you have. If you have no more knowledge than that, perhaps we will have to be content with it; but if you have more knowledge, it would be to your advantage to give it. The committee will take a recess for five minutes. (At 4 o'clock and 10 minutes p. m. the committee took a recess until 4 o'clock and 15 minutes p. m.) AFTER RECESS. At the expiration of the recess the subcommittee reassembled. The CHAIRMAN. If Mr. Solon S. Perrin is present he will come forward and be sworn. TESTIMONY OF SOLON S. PERRIN. SOLON S. PERRIN responded to his name and was sworn by the chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Perrin, having been sworn as a witness, you will remain in attendance during the sessions of the committee, and you will be heard as early as possible. Now, Mr. Littlefield, I understand you to say that you will have Mr. Edmonds make up that statement of the items of which he has personal knowledge. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Yes. Perhaps I ought to explain that Mr. Edmonds had my copy of this printed testimony before the State committee, and was at work in my room last evening going over these items, in accordance with the suggestion of the chairman. I think he had checked in Exhibit 49 all of the items as to which he made the arrangements and gave any directions or instructions. Since that time I have taken that copy back to my room, so that if I am correct the memorandum of his notations is in my room. Senator SUTHERLAND. He was to go over the accounts and come in this morning prepared to testify as to the items of which he had personal knowledge. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He was doing that. I do not know whether he has completed it or not. My understanding is that he has, and that he has checked it up in the copy which I have in my room. Mr. Sacket is doing the same thing on the copy which he has. Mr. SACKET. I have it almost completed. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Mr. Sacket can proceed with that to-night if you would like to have him do it. The CHAIRMAN. In view of the fact that the witness is going over the statement for the purpose of making his examination more expeditious, the committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. (At 4 o'clock and 21 minutes p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, October 4, 1911, at 10 o'clock a. m.) 15235°-VOL. 1-11-12 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1911. FEDERAL BUILDING, Milwaukee, Wis. The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a. m. rene. Present also: Mr. C. E. Littlefield, Mr. W. E. Black, and Mr. H. H. J. Upham, counsel for Senator Isaac Stephenson. TESTIMONY OF E. A. EDMONDS-Resumed. The CHAIRMAN. The chair will ask Mr. Edmonds to resume the stand. Mr. Edmonds resumed the stand. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Edmonds, on Monday you were requested to look over the account rendered by you or Mr. Sacket, or jointly, and tell the committee as to which particular items in that account you had personal knowledge of, as to the purpose of the expenditures. Have you gone through the accounts? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. At what page in the report have you the accounts? Mr. EDMONDS. Page 588. The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would specify which items in that account were expended under your personal knowledge and direction, and in connection with that statement state whether or not you know for what purpose the money was furnished or expended. Mr. EDMONDS. Yes; and may I make the explanation in making my checkings that some of these I know more about than I do about others? For instance, in Dane County, as to the organizing, I could not say positively that that was money paid to Mr. Ames. The CHAIRMAN. Let us take them in their order, so that the record will be orderly. Which is the first item of which you have personal knowledge? Mr. EDMONDS. July 18, Dane County organizing, $200. The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. That was the explanation that I was giving. The CHAIRMAN. But I want you to repeat your explanation as an answer to my question. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. There is nothing here to indicate The CHAIRMAN. I do not care about that, Mr. Edmonds; I want your knowledge on the subject. Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. I will make it plain to you so that we will not have to repeat it. Either you or Mr. Sacket were represented as having knowledge in regard to the purpose for which the money was paid, and the manner in which it was used. The testimony of each of you together should cover every item in this account. Mr. EDMONDS. May I make this statement, in explanation, that the time has been long since this money was expended, and the report was made The CHAIRMAN. We are aware of that. Mr. EDMONDS. This report is not clear, and simply says "Dane County organizing," giving no names. I have no reason to doubt that that was paid to the man who did the organizing in that county, but I could not swear to it. The CHAIRMAN. Let us start out with a fair understanding. Your reasoning in regard to it is not testimony or evidence. If you will confine yourself as nearly as possible to stating the facts without drawing conclusions, leaving that to the committee, the committee will be obliged, and the committee will take notice of the lapse of time and perhaps of a difficulty which may be found in accurate recollection. But we want your recollection. Take the item of July 18, $200. To whom was that money paid? Do you know? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who directed its payment! Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. For what was it paid? The CHAIRMAN. For what was it expended? The CHAIRMAN. When did you last know? The CHAIRMAN. You, then, never knew anything about the item of July 18 for organizing Dane County, $200? Mr. EDMONDS. As to this particular item I do not know that I ever did; I do not remember. The CHAIRMAN. Pass now to the first item of which you have knowledge. Mr. EDMONDS. The item, "General organizing, Edmonds's check, $150." The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. That money was paid to me. The CHAIRMAN. What did you do with it? Mr. EDMONDS. I am unable to recall the exact things I did with it, but it was paid undoubtedly for my expenses at the hotel. The CHAIRMAN. I do not want any speculation in regard to it. Unless you know, do not speculate in respect to it. Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Have you no knowledge as to what use you made of that $150? Mr. EDMONDS. No knowledge as to that particular $150. The CHAIRMAN. And you have no knowledge as to the use you made of it? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not remember what I did with it; no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. The money was paid to you, was it? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Take the next item of which you have knowledge. Mr. ED MONDS. It is on the next page. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Give the date. Mr. EDMONDS. July 22, J. W. Wypszinski, $50. The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. To the man whose name is given there, and it was. done by my instructions. The CHAIRMAN. Were you present when it was paid to him? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a conversation with him? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. |