Mr. VAN CLEVE. Well, you might put it that way, if you want to. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. More or less of a cough.

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Well, I tell you he did not want to do it. He did not do it willingly.

Senator POMERENE. During this time did he ask as to what was being done with this money?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. He did not ask me, because I did not have anything to do with the disbursing of it.

Senator POMERENE. Did he ever indicate to you he wanted to know what was being done with it?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. I do not recollect that he ever said anything to me about it in particular. Of course I had charge of the Marinette County campaign, for which $792.75 was expended. He talked about that once in a while and wanted to know what was going on, and so forth; but the Milwaukee disbursements were made by his managers down here.

Senator POMERENE. You were here at the head of his bank, and when you expended $792.75, that was of sufficient importance between you and him to talk about the details of it?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Well, he did not bother me very much about the details. Of course he left that campaign matter to me, because he had the State on his hands; he had much larger things to think of; but the detail of the Marinette County campaign he left to me.

Senator POMERENE. And you were one of the State managers? Mr. VAN CLEVE. I did not look at it in that way. I was one of a committee that was kind of helping out on the campaign. I was not a State manager.

Senator POMERENE. Does it not occur to you as strange that he would discuss in detail this $792.75 matter for your county, and not discuss in detail the $107,000 or $108,000 paid for the State campaign?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. No, sir; because, as I say, he left all that to Mr. Puelicher and Mr. Edmonds and Mr. Sacket, and his friends down here that is, the disbursement of it.

Senator POMERENE. Do you mean that he was a little more particular in discussing details with you, who was at the head of his bank, than he was in discussing the details with Mr. Edmonds? He was not associated in business with him here?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. He did not discuss with me at all the disbursements of this money down here.

Senator POMERENE. Do you know of his discussing it with anybody?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. No, sir; except that I supposed he discussed it, of course, with Mr. Puelicher and Mr. Edmonds.

Senator POMERENE. I think that is all.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. With reference to the discussion of the details of disbursements in Milwaukee, as between yourself and Senator Stephenson-Mr. Van Cleve, I understand that you reside in Marinette? Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. And you were in Milwaukee during the campaign?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. To any extent?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Two or three times.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You would come down and go back the same day? Mr. VAN CLEVE. I think so, or the day after. I would not be here more than a day or two.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Were you here enough so that you were familiar with the details of what was going on here?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Only in a general way. I was up in the office there, in the Wells Building, once or twice.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Were you down here on business connected with the campaign when you were here during that period?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Not directly, as I know of. Of course I was very much interested in the campaign, and talked with everybody who was identified with it.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. And substantially you were in Marinette during the whole campaign?.

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I suppose Senator Stephenson knew that, did he not?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He knew you had no knowledge of these details down here?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do you recollect for what purpose you did come down from Milwaukee during the two or three visits you say you did make during that period?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Yes; I think I came down on other business. I am a trustee for the Wells estate, and I come down quite frequently on that account, and I think it was in reference to something in connection with that. I did not come down, I know, for that purpose. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. You say you did not come down for "that purpose." "When you say "that purpose " to what do you refer, the

campaign up there?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. The campaign up there; yes, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is to say, you did not make any trip down here for the purpose of looking after the campaign?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. No, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Do I understand that it was the original understanding or arrangement between yourself and the Senator that, so far as the details of the State campaign were concerned, those were matters to be taken care of by Mr. Edmonds and Mr. Sacket and the people here?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Absolutely.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Was any money expended in this campaign, to your knowledge, for improper purposes?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. No, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Were any votes purchased by money that you disbursed?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. No, sir.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Did you ever have any information from any reliable source, anywhere, at any time, in connection with the campaign, that votes were purchased or money was corruptly expended in the interest of Senator Stephenson?

Mr. VAN CLEVE. Never.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is all

TESTIMONY OF RODNEY SACKET.

RODNEY SACKETT, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

The CHAIRMAN. What is your place of residence, Mr. Sacket?

Mr. SACKET. Berlin, Wis., is my legal residence, but I am actually residing in Washington, D. C., most of the time.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Senator Stephenson?

Mr. SACKET. I do.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Did Mr. Sacket state his present business?
Mr. SACKET. I did not.

The CHAIRMAN. State what occupation you are engaged in.

Mr. SACKET. I am one of the clerks of the United States Senate. The CHAIRMAN. What clerk are you?

Mr. SACKET. An executive clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you occupied that position?

Mr. SACKET. About nine years.

The CHAIRMAN. You know Senator Stephenson?

Mr. SACKET. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. What connection had you, if any, with the campaign of Senator Stephenson in 1908?

Mr. SACKET. I assisted Mr. Edmonds in the general management of the campaign in the Milwaukee office.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you go to Wisconsin that year?

Mr. SACKET. The latter part of June.

The CHAIRMAN. Why did you go?

Mr. SACKET. It is my custom to go there after the adjournment of Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. You are here then during the recess of Congress? Mr. SACKET. Generally, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What part did you perform in connection with the campaign of Senator Stephenson?

Mr. SACKET. I did a little of everything, particularly looking after the business of the office, the buying of supplies

The CHAIRMAN. What office and where?

Mr. SACKET. The office of the headquarters in Milwaukee, in the Wells Building.

The CHAIRMAN. Who engaged you to perform those duties?

Mr. SACKET. Senator Stephenson.

The CHAIRMAN. When?

Mr. SACKET. The latter part of June; I can not give you the exact date.

The CHAIRMAN. When did he first speak to you in regard to the matter?

Mr. SACKET. Some time in the latter part of June.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. SACKET. Over the telephone first, from Marinette to Berlin. The CHAIRMAN. How far is that?

Mr. SACKET. In a direct line, I think, about 125 miles.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. That is from Marinette to Berlin?

Mr. SACKET. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What did Senator Stephenson say to you over the phone?

Mr. SACKET. He said he had become a candidate for the Senate, and asked me to come to Marinette and talk to him about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything more than that?

Mr. SACKET. He asked me to come to Marinette by way of Milwaukee, and to ask Mr. Puelicher to come up with me.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you comply with that request?

Mr. SACKET. I did; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you reach Marinette?

Mr. SACKET. One of the last days in June.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was present at the meeting with Senator Stephenson?

Mr. SACKET. Mr. Puelicher and Senator Stephenson and I were alone.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you meet?

Mr. SACKET. At Senator Stephenson's house.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that in the city or town?
Mr. SACKET. It is in the city of Marinette.

The CHAIRMAN. What time of day did you meet?

Mr. SACKET. Some time in the evening; late in the evening.
The CHAIRMAN. How long did the meeting last?

Mr. SACKET. Oh, we talked in Senator Stephenson's house for several hours.

The CHAIRMAN. What arrangement, if any, was there made with reference to the management of his campaign?

Mr. SACKET. Senator Stephenson asked me to do what I could to get the nomination papers, to get out the vote, and promote his interests generally, with specific instructions to keep within the law, whatever I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that statement made in the general terms in which you have expressed it, or was the law considered, and the question as to what would be "keeping within the law" discussed?

Mr. SACKET. He used the words, if I remember correctly, "Keep within the law whatever you do."

The CHAIRMAN. Was the question as to what the law was considered?

Mr. SACKET. Not to my recollection; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It was confined to that general statement?

Mr. SACKET. As I understand it; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you promise to keep within the law?

Mr. SACKET. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you familiar with the law?

Mr. SACKET. Not professionally. I am not a lawyer.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you familiar with the law referred to by Senator Stephenson within which you were to keep?

Mr. SACKET. I thought I had a general understanding of it. The CHAIRMAN. Did you take any measures to make yourself thoroughly acquainted with it before entering on your duties? Mr. SACKET. No more than to read the law carefully.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you read it carefully?

Mr. SACKET. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you entered upon the duties you had undertaken?

Mr. SACKET. Before I did anything except to rent and furnish offices.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you were fully advised as to the law when you were acting in the capacity you were for Senator Stephenson? Mr. SACKET. I advised myself to the best of my ability.

The CHAIRMAN. So that you claim no immunity by reason of not knowing the law?

Mr. SACKET. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What ever you did, you accept the responsibility for it as being within the law?

Mr. SACKET. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the nature of the first duty that you undertook?

Mr. SACKET. To open up headquarters here in Milwaukee.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by opening up headquarters? Mr. SACKET. Renting and furnishing an office and employing stenographers.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you do?

Mr. SACKET. I did that.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you do?

Mr. SACKET. I rented an office.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. SACKET. In the Wells Building.

The CHAIRMAN. How much of an office?

Mr. SACKET. I think it was room 1320, an office containing two large rooms, to start with. Then I rented the furniture and engaged assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. How many clerks did you employ?

Mr. SACKET. At the start I had the assistance of the messenger to Senator Stephenson's committee, Arthur Lambeck, and I employed two stenographers.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you afterwards open other offices?

Mr. SACKET. Not at that time. I proceeded then to send out blanks on which to get signatures to the nomination papers, as I would call them, which are required by law, in order to get Senator Stephenson's name on the ballot; and possibly before then I made an effort to get a list of the names of persons to whom to send those blanks.

The CHAIRMAN. You commenced paying out money for Senator Stephenson for campaign purposes on July 6, did you?

Mr. SACKET. I do not remember the date exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement which you prepared, or a copy of a statement which you prepared, with reference to the disbursements through you or through the office?

Mr. SACKET. I have not, but I believe it is contained in Exhibit 49. The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have a copy of that handed to the witness.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Shall I hand it to him, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator POMERENE. There is one account here on page 475, Exhibit 47.

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I am not familiar with that.

Mr. BLACK. Exhibit 49 is the statement in its final form.

Senator POMERENE. What page is that?

Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Page 588 of the proceedings before the joint committee of the Wisconsin Legislature.