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groups that you have mentioned here and it is something that we will bring into our thinking.

Senator HATHAWAY. Now, on page 7 you stated that HUD's demonstration funding will cover differential costs of the solar energy system as compared to conventional energy systems. How will you take account of the life cycle costs as well as the initial costs?

Dr. Moskow. Well, in the funding for the demonstration, it will just be the initial cost that we will be talking about but, of course, one of the purposes of the demonstration is to get a better understanding of life cycle costs compared to the front-end costs and to encourage lenders and others in the building industry to change their practice so they move more toward life cycle costs.

Senator HATHAWAY. You mentioned on page 8 that the criteria now in the interim report developed by HUD using the services of the National Bureau on Standards are now available to the public from the Government Printing Office. Does the public know about this?

Dr. Moskow. We issued a press release when they came out. This is a copy of the interim performance criteria and I know there was an article in the Washington Post about it and all of the major national organizations in the construction industry know that these are available.

Senator HATHWAY. You have notified them?

Dr. Moskow. Yes.

Senator HATHAWAY. Any comments, Mr. Piper, or any of the witnesses from yesterday? I think we had three.

Dr. PLUNKETT. I would like to get back to the communication thing. I am delighted to see both these gentlemen here. I tried in a period of 1 year through a series of telephone calls to make an appointment with these gentlemen and neither one of these gentlemen would see me after about 12 calls, so I am delighted to see them in person.

Dr. Moskow. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for that but I think it is in part understandable. We have answered somewhere between three and four thousand inquiries over the last year on solar energy. We have really been flooded by people who want to come in. We have a lot of citizens who want us to give them a loan or they want to install solar equipment on their house. We have a lot of manufacturers who want to come in and talk to us about their system that they have developed. We have a lot of builders and developers who want to come in and put solar equipment into a development that they have underway or are planning. It is just impossible for us to communicate personally with all of these people, many of whom have very worthwhile and interesting ideas.

Through the Program Opportunities Notice and through the Request For Proposals and through the Request For Information we will give people an opportunity, very broad opportunity, to provide to us the types of ideas and types of systems and proposals that they now have and that they will have over the next 5 years. As stated earlier this will be repeated every year for the next 5 years and I think that given the number of people who are interested in this area, that is the only fair way that we really could go forward and then carry on a program. It would be through the regular Government competitive procurement

Senator HATHAWAY. Maybe you could not see these individuals themselves but certainly some of your staff could see them. I know there are representatives of the Senate who represent 21 million people that can't see all their constituents who come to Washington but certainly their staff can see them. I think somebody who made 12 telephone calls would at least get an appointment with somebody. Dr. Moskow. Mr. Chairman, we have asked Congress for authority to hire 10 people for our staff in this area, in our fiscal 1976 budget, and at this point in time we have authority to have 5 people. We have three professionals who are working on the solar program. Our staff is limited. We hope if Congress approves our requests we will be able to expand that staff. I think it is fair to say also at this point, as we move into the procurement process, that the law prohibits us or limits us in terms of the type of personal contact we can now have as we are going through the procurement process.

Senator HATHAWAY. Mr. Piper?

Mr. PIPER. Senator, I sympathize with HUD in a way because our company has answered over 2,700 questions from the public in the past 8 months on solar energy and I know that it can be very burdensome. However, in the re-write I did of the ERDA-23 document I think you will see how one small manufacturer looks at this particular area. I think personally that you had some very important testimony that was just given which is right now the Government is not prepared to insure a loan on use of solar equipment. I don't think the program is moving fast enough and I don't think-$650,000 for demonstrations in fiscal 1975 is a drop in the bucket and just our company can bring you projects that are ready to go right now far in excess of that amount. We do retrofit and new work and I am sure that there are many other small solar manufacturers around the United States with good systems, and builders who believe in them, that would be able to do the same thing right now. I would suggest that although I think this is a good start, it should be drastically speeded up.

Senator HATHAWAY. I think that is a good suggestion. Any comments on that, Dr. Moskow?

Dr. Moskow. Well, we have been moving fairly rapidly, Mr. Chairman. The plan came out in March and this will be finalized at the end of June which, of course, is the basic structure for the overall solar effort. We will be going out with requests-one of our requests for proposals will be going out later this week or next week and the others in June. We are talking about within a matter of weeks at this point that these will be issued. These will be formal notices to the public. So that I don't think we could possibly speed that process up any faster than it is going now.

Mr. Piper mentioned that it was burdensome to meet with a lot of individuals who had ideas in this field. We don't look at it that way. We think there are a lot of very worthwhile-I am sure there are very worthwhile ideas in terms of solar systems and also builders and developers who have ideas in this field and we want to take advantage of ingenuity and expertise that is available in this field and that is the purpose of the process that I discussed before.

Senator HATHAWAY. You indicate on page 4 that your requests for solar information will be widely distributed. What mechanism are you

Dr. Moskow. Why don't I ask Mr. Sherman to go through the details of which groups will be sent

Mr. SHERMAN. That is the same discussion you had with Dr. Teem just a short time ago. It is the same procurement. We are a teamERDA, HUD, and its other agencies involved in the demonstration program. We had not thought of the SBA list as Dr. Teem had not, but certainly it is one option of getting the information out. A major dissemination program will be set up through the Oak Ridge Laboratory, part of ERDA, and we, HUD, through our constituency, the consumer of the housing, the builder of the housing, and the industry involved in housing will be getting our information out. We will be attending all types of conventions, including the conventions of ASHRAE and other professional societies, mechanical engineering, and mechanical contracting societies. Obviously it is very difficult to hit the individual firms, each and every one, but we do have our own mailing list now of people who wrote in for information, well in excess of 5,000 and we will be sending everything to our mailing list and that includes individuals and business. We will be using the services of the associations and we will be using the services of the data bank and hopefully we will be blanketing as much as we possibly can with all of these various avenues.

Senator HATHAWAY. Do you think every building contractor in the country will know about the program?

Dr. Moskow. No; I don't think it is fair to say that. There are well over 60,000 builders alone in the country and, of course, the industry is fluid, as you know. People move in and out of the industry. We hope more will be moving in this year and these are one-man firms in many cases. They are small businesses. And I am sure that there would be no way that every building contractor in the United States would know about this, but certainly by working through the organizations, through the National Associations of Home Builders and their local organizations and all the other groups Mr. Sherman mentioned, we are going to try to let as many as possible know about the program.

Senator HATHAWAY. To get back 1 minute to the question Mr. Piper brought up, you say you are going to spend $650,000 between now and July 1. How much do you intend to spend during the next fiscal year? Dr. Moskow. We really don't know for sure because we don't know the size of the demonstration but a figure comparable to the 43.9 figure that I mentioned, $43.9 million for the entire 5 years, would be about $6 million in fiscal 1976. But again this would depend on the size of the demonstration program.

Senator HATHAWAY. That would be approximately how many units? Dr. Moskow. That assumes 1,000 units overall. We can come out with the exact number for fiscal 1976.

I think we had better supply it for the record, Mr. Chairman. We don't have that type of breakdown.'

Senator HATHAWAY. All right. Including mobile homes?

Dr. Moskow. Mobile homes will be eligible for participation in the program, yes, especially through the integrated system portion of the program.

1 Dr. Moskow subsequently supplied the following information: "Approximately 100 to

Senator HATHAWAY. Would it be fair to say you are covering every conceivable type of house or home?

Dr. Moskow. Yes; I think it would be fair to say that, Mr. Chair

man.

Senator HATHAWAY. Now, let me ask you one last question. You mention on page 4 interagency panel on selection of solar systems. Will these be meetings open to the public?

Dr. Moskow. Under the Federal procurement policy, these meetings would not normally be open to the public.

Senator HATHAWAY. Will representatives of industry and the public be on the panel?

Dr. Moskow. No; these would be solely Federal Government officials on the panel.

Senator HATHAWAY. Can one appeal decisions made by the panel? Mr. SHERMAN. Each contractor who is not accepted has the right to a debriefing and a complete understanding as to why he was not selected. Again that is one of the purposes of the five cycles. After a debriefing explaining why we didn't select a given contractor we can show him where we thought his shortcomings were. Hopefully then he can go back, modify his system or do what he thinks is necessary to come in at a second cycle. This is one of the reasons that we had the five cycles, so that we wouldn't be excluding, but that we would indeed be encouraging further development and upgrading of the system so that it would come in under the program.

Senator HATHAWAY. All right. There is a rollcall vote on right now. Why don't we adjourn for lunch and come back at 1:30. I won't need you any more but maybe you would want to stay around in case there are any other comments made by other witnesses or by witnesses who testified yesterday.

Dr. Moskow. Well, I wish I could, Mr. Chairman, but I have a tight schedule this afternoon but we will have someone here from our staff sitting in.

Senator HATHAWAY. Fine, thank you. The committee will recess until 1:30.

[Whereupon, at 12:32 p.m. the committee recessed until 1:30 p.m. this same day.]

[Testimony resumes at page 413. The exhibits supplied for the record by Dr. Moskow follow:]

38. SENATOR MCINTYRE'S QUESTIONS TO MICHAEL H. MOSKOW, WITH Dr. MOSKOW'S ANSWERS INTERSPERSED

Question 1. Enclosed is a copy of a letter I have written to Secretary Hills on one aspect of your testimony of May 14-the fact that HUD's Minimum Property Standards apparently preclude at present the issuance of any kind of Federal insurance or guarantee on a home mortgage covering a home that includes solar systems or appliances. We shall include in the hearing record the Secretary's answer to my letter; but we should also be pleased to have from you, for insertion at the same point in the record, any additional comments or details on this subject that you might wish to provide.

Answer. I participated in the preparation of the reply of Secretary Hills to your letter of May 23, and agree fully with the response and have nothing further to add.

Question 2. On page 4 of your prepared statement, you set out generally describe how the residential demonstration program will operate and you continue:

to

19

The program will demonstrate solar energy concepts, systems and subsystems which are considered available and ready for demonstration by an interagency panel.

(a) What agencies are (or will be) represented on the panel, and who are the representatives of each agency who sit (or will sit) on the panel?

(b) You testified (transcript p. 220, line 6) that there will be only Federal Government officials on the panel. Has consideration been given to having the panel include representatives of the construction and solar manufacturing industries, consumer groups, and small business organizations? If not, could you now give such consideration? If you have already considered this, could you please explain for the record why you felt that no representation of the private sector was needed on this panel?

(c) Will meetings of the panel be announced and open to the public?

(d) In amplification of Mr. Sherman's testimony (transcript, p. 220, beginning line 10) on the rights of a citizen disappointed by a decision or action of the panel, could you advise

(i) Will the panel publish formal or informal rules of procedures, which will inform an individual inventor or small business how to argue to the panel, orally or in writing or both, that a particular concept, system or subsystem is "available and ready for demonstration"?

(ii) Will the panel, in such rules or otherwise, fully explain the "debriefing" procedure and rights for renewed consideration in a subsequent demonstration cycle, discussed by Mr. Sherman?

(iii) Will there be any procedure for an appeal to some higher authority from an adverse decision of the panel on a question of availability and readiness of a product for demonstration?

(iv) Can you supply for the hearing record a text-or substantive outline, if text is unavailable of the panel's rules of procedure?

Answer. (a) The primary responsibility for setting up the review panel remains with ERDA and we would, therefore, defer the answer to this question to Dr.

Teem.

(b), (c) and (d)—Same answer as to (a) above.

Question 3. At several points in your testimony, you and Mr. Sherman referred to HUD's plans to enter into a contract or contracts for the preparation of— "an experimental matrix which will identify particular opportunities to test and measure potential barriers [to solar heating and cooling] such as local building codes, zoning regulations, and financing modes, as well as providing for demonstrations in the "wide variety" of climates, geographical areas, and housing types called for in the Solar Heating and Cooling Demonstration Act." (Page 5 of prepared statement; transcript page 195.)

Mr. Sherman said (transcript page 203) that a Request for Proposals (RFP) for the preparation of such an experimental matrix would be mailed "within the next week" which, if accomplished, would mean that it has been mailed now. (a) Could we have for inclusion in the hearing record a copy of the Request for Proposal referred to?

(b) Could we have a list identifying the classes of organizations-governmental, big business, small business universities, non-profit organizations, etc.-and the number of members of each class to which the RFP was mailed?

(c) Could you identify the person or persons, and/or the professional background(s) and principal prior business connections of the person or persons, that drafted the RFP?

(d) In a summary way, please describe how the experimental matrix will be developed, and at what cost.

(e) How will it be coordinated with the ERDA matrix for commercial units? Answer. (a) The Request for Proposals is enclosed.

(b) The RFP was announced in the Commerce Business Daily, and RFP's were mailed to firms requesting them. A list of recipients is enclosed. We have not tried to classify them. Please note that this solicitation is limited to firms with no hardware interest in solar energy, since such firms would face a severe conflict of interest problem.

(c) The RFP was developed by career employees of the Department. The primary draft was prepared by Joseph Sherman, Acting Director, Division of Energy, Building Technology and Standards, and David C. Moore, Director, Solar Heating and Cooling Research Staff. Mr. Sherman has a degree in Civil Engineering, and has been an employee of the Department since June 1968. His previous employment was with the National Association of Home Builders Research Foundation, Conrad Engineers, and Pernnimon and Browne Soils Engineers. Mr. Moore has degrees in Building Engineering and Construction and in Economics and Engineering, and has been an employee of the Department since Note.-Pages refer to the original transcript.

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