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Dr. TEEM. There are a number of such projects that were initiated either under the National Science Foundation or under ERDA which do relate to demonstrating these kinds of technologies, particularly those related to the more commercial type of applications. The schools that I talked about are one such example. We have a project planned at Saginaw, Michigan, in cooperation with the Government Services Administration, and another one up in New Hampshire. We are working with the U.S. Postal Service in terms of projects, planning of retrofitting Post Offices to solar energy. Generally we are trying to move ahead rapidly with a number of demonstration projects under the Department of Defense and other Government agencies that let us go into demonstrations immediately. Admiral Hart yesterday testified to our Memorandum of Understanding with the Department of Defense where we will fund through this ERDA program 50 housing units converted to solar heating under the Department of Defense ongoing housing for military personnel program.

These are all things that are underway.

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Dr. TEEM. If we can have the second overlay, there are many projects that are underway not funded by the Government under the ERDA program but are being done under private auspices and these are an important part of the whole demonstration program. We look to our demonstration program to stimulate industrial utilization of these technologies. A measure of success will be the degree to which, with private industry and for direct application, many more units get installed in the country by the end of the program than we are doing under the direct Government funding. We are trying to stimulate the industry. Our objective is to see by 1980, at the end of the project, an amplification factor, as we call it, of perhaps five to ten of these numbers of units. But we will have a better view of that as the program develops.

Senator HATHAWAY. How much time do you need on a demonstration project to see whether it is going to work out?

Dr. TEEM. This, of course, depends upon the size of the project. If we are in a commercial project or a residential project, the times are somewhat different. The construction time will, however, be generally less than the order of a year to bring one of these construction elements to completion.

We need to follow carefully the process by which the solar technology is introduced through the various ongoing building industries, the relationship to the financing of the home, and the relationship to the kinds of building codes that exist in that particular locality. We will be designing a program to go rather systematically through these types of factors which Dr. Moskow will talk about. We need then to follow what happens to these demonstration projects after people are using them to see how the solar energy is viewed by the user, by the ultimate consumer, the individual.

So we will be following a number of these projects for at least 5 years, a number of specific ones, in order to get the data analyzed. But we would expect to see much of the early results, of course, by the end of the 5-year period, the demonstration program analyzed.

Senator HATHAWAY. Why would it take 5 years? Isn't one season enough to let you know whether the heating plant works all right? Dr. TEEM. We will see that the heating plant works but, of course, solar energy, to be really economic, must be useful over an extended period of time. And, of course, there are variations from year to year in the solar energy received. We want to be able to provide to the public the kind of information that shows how solar energy works in a home or in a commercial unit over a more extended period of time.

Senator HATHAWAY. But, you know, we have had some of them that have been in existence for an awful long period of time. The one at MIT has been in existence since 1930.

Dr. TEEM. That is right.

Senator HATHAWAY. Can't you tell from that can't you get an awful lot of information from that which would obviate the necessity of going 5 years on your own demonstration project?

Dr. Moskow. Mr. Chairman, I think it is important to add that we will be getting preliminary information from the residential units certainly after the first year when they have gone through a full summer and winter. We will be getting increasingly more information each year, so we are not going to wait until the end of 5 years and then

come up with a report at that point. We will be getting information during all that time.

The other point, in terms of the MIT program, it is only in one climatic region of the United States and one of the main purposes of this demonstration is to spread out into various climatic regions to see what the differences would be. Solar energy may be more economically feasible and desirable in some areas than in other areas.

Senator HATHAWAY. The MIT one is in a fairly severe region where I think you have got quite a lot of useful data.

Dr. TEEM. Yes. It is also true, Mr. Chairman, that demonstrating the feasibility or demonstrating the technology gives one level of assurance to the public that in a location for example, 'in southern California, that this is practical. But we will be demonstrating a wide variety of equipments provided by many manufacturers, many of these, of course, being small business. We want to try to give evidence not just that it can be done once but that the current and improved equipments actually work throughout the country. I think this will be very important in terms of the public acceptance of this new technology, that they can have confidence that it is not done just in a demonstration house but it is done where people are living and in a variety of locales and a variety of environments.

Senator HATHAWAY. How about demonstration of retrofitting?

Dr. TEEM. We do intend to work towards demonstrating retrofitting. Our analyses have indicated two things. One is that the impact upon the energy supply, having solar energy retrofitted into existing buildings, would be the large impact. The second part of our analyses indicate that on a cost basis, that is less likely to be cost effective in the early stages of the development of the industry because of the high per-unit costs and the additional costs of that retrofitting. We will be doing some of our research and development and our development demonstrations to try to lower those costs in connection with retrofitting.

Senator HATHAWAY. Now, do you find that the poor people in the country who are living in public family dwellings or small single dwellings are the ones most adversely affected by the cost of oil and gas? I hope that you are waging your demonstration programs toward their needs.

Dr. TEEM. One of our projects that we have underway is connected with a public housing for the elderly in the State of Connecticut. We have a project to demonstrate the technology there of solar heating. We are trying to give consideration to those factors in our design of our demonstration matrix that indicates the criteria by which we will be selecting locations and other considerations for demonstration projects. Senator HATHAWAY. While you are talking about the cost per unit I wonder if Mr. Piper wanted to comment on the testimony just given. Or do you want to wait until the end of the testimony? You might as well make your comments now if you would like to. Mr. Piper testified yesterday on the unit cost.

Mr. PIPER. I have one comment. We have in ERDA right now a proposal to retrofit one of our existing systems on a 220-unit project in downtown Palo Alto where we will provide about 20 percent of the space heating and water heating with solar for $44,000 installed. That

and that is a retrofit. So I will make this offer right now. I will cut your $18,900 price in half and take your full 1,000 units if you are ready to sign a contract right now.

Senator HATHAWAY. In view of the statutes on fraud you had better put that offer in writing.

Will you accept that, doctor?

Dr. Moskow. I certainly can talk to Mr. Piper about it and get some more details on it. Seriously, if he is talking about costs, if I understood him correctly, certainly we would want to discuss the cost figures with him. Mr. Chairman, it would have to be after the official notices go out to the public that ask for, request for proposals and requests for information that Dr. Teem mentioned before.

Senator HATHAWAY. Well, I hope both of you are mindful of the fact that at least as far as efficient projects are concerned, I think we have it better in small businesses in the country than among large corporations and that you will utilize the small business community to the greatest extent possible. I think you will get a cost saving and a better product.

Dr. TEEM. That is certainly our intent, our expectation. While we may not at this time have good estimates of percentage, I think that a large fraction of all of the activities that will come under the demonstration are more apt to come from small businesses of this type, and so we look forward to seeing that result.

Senator HATHAWAY. I would also hope that you are mindful that your communications with the general public should be vastly improved in the very near future. Thus, I would appreciate your supplying for the record (a) what your plans are in more detail on disseminating this booklet-the number of which I would think would be increased substantially, and (b) your detailed plans for the workshops, including where you are going to hold them and the dates of holding them.

I have kept you here for a long time. Dr. Plunkett, do you want to make a comment?

Dr. PLUNKETT. Yes. With regard to the interim report, ERDA document 23, I did not receive a copy. There was a document put out called "Directory of Information on Solar Heating and Cooling," done by the University of Colorado, Environmental Action Center. I called up at random five people in that and none of them had received it either.

Dr. TEEM. Well, we used that document in part as our source for our initial mailing and we want to try to distribute we had only limited production in that first week. We did try to distribute, as I say, to over 500 and many of them were people from there. However, I think what we can do now is to take this input back and try to understand where our system did not work well. I would appreciate it if you would give me the names of those individuals that didn't receive it and any other guidance that you might in terms of distribution of that report because we will be very eager to do that.

Dr. PLUNKETT. Yes, I will be happy to. This is why I made such a point about the dissemination of information. It is very critical, particularly to small innovators who can't send people and representatives to Washington, and it is something important, that is why I chose that example. I knew this document was available. There were

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