the pigs, you have to give them the skim milk, or you will lose them. So it is not entirely wasted.

Dr. CARLSON. I did not say it was wasted, Senator, but we can raise perfectly good hogs on foods less suitable for the human being than skim milk. When you feed skim milk to hogs you get only about 15 to 20 percent, at maximum, in human food, of pork. You are largely wasting this very valuable protein.

Senator AIKEN. On so many farms the skim milk is the only available food for giving to the little pigs, starting them until they are 2 months old, and getting them along.

Dr. CARLSON. You mean, if the mother or sow died?

Senator AIKEN. Well, to supplement her. She only has enough for them for so long at a time.

Dr. CARLSON. Well, it all depends on what she does and how good a mother she is, or otherwise. It is the same problem as the human being has.

Have I made myself clear, Senator?

Senator AIKEN. Yes.

Dr. CARLSON. I think that those are the major points that I want to make.

Now, there are some minor points. Obviously, there can be no food problem involved because, as you know, the margarine industries have produced colored margarine, over 100,000,000 pounds last year, for the armed forces and for lend-lease-colored margarine.

The color used is a coal-tar dye certified by the Pure Food and Drug Administration as being noninjurious. It is the very same dye used in dyeing butter. There, we use it without labeling.

I think there it is a little fraudulent, a little, for the reason that the color, the natural color of summer butter indicates the amount of true vitamin A which is not present in winter butter, when the cattle are on stall feed. But, let us forget it.

Now, the housewife at the present time, under the present law, must mix the color in the uncolored margarine. The law is prohibitive, they cannot make and sell colored margarine under the present law, economically. They must mix it. That means a waste of time, which means something under present war situations.

But, more serious, it means a wastage of food. The smearing of the margarine on the dry dish, when you consider that it involves millions of pounds, it is a serious economic factor.

As a matter of fact, quite apart from the margarine, the problem of wastage of fats in the American kitchen, and the American table, is probably our greatest food waste.

Now, the layman, the housewife-I have traveled a great deal recently—are soon going to be conscious of the fact that Uncle Sam provides for our armed forces a type of food that they cannot get for their own families without this nuisance of taking it and putting it in the pan and coloring it in the home.

I think those are the main points.

Senator ELLENDER. Dr. Carlson, are you familiar with the process of making margarine?

Dr. CARLSON. Yes. I have followed it for 25 years or more. Senator ELLENDER. Someone testified yesterday that under the law it was necessary to remove the coloring matter from the oils. Is there nutriment loss in that process?

Dr. CARLSON. Yes. You can have oil like corn oil, for example, and some of the vegetable oils or chicken fat or turkey fat, the yellow color there is of the same nutritive value as butter. It is largely carotenes, or previtamin A. It is not vitamin A yet, but the human body and the animal body can make real vitamin A out of this previtamin A. Yes; that is correct.

Some of the coloring matter, of course, may be of little nutritive value.

I was asked in the hearing before-am I taking up too much of your time?

Senator ELLENDER. No. Take all the time you desire.
Senator AIKEN. Go right ahead by all means.

Dr. CARLSON. I was asked in the hearing before, in the committee of the House of Representatives, "Why not color margarine red?" Well, I would not expect that kind of a question from a member of Congress. Because, we may as well ask, "Why not use for a lady's use black lipstick?" It is a matter of human habit, of human psychology. That is all.

We are used to this spread on bread. And that color, we have got the notion that the same yellow that we spread for bread is a more wholesome and palatable food than it would be if it were some other color.

We cannot overnight change such an ingrained habit or psychology. And I do not see why we should. At any rate, we cannot do it. So, this idea of coloring margarine black or coloring margarine red is only a proposition of those who do not understand human nature. Senator ELLENDER. You say you were surprised just because a Congressman asked that kind of a question of you?

Dr. CARLSON. I was surprised and grieved, Senator.

Senator AIKEN. I am sure no Senator is going to ask that kind of a question.

Senator WILSON. At least not now.

Senator ELLENDER. Dr. Carlson, have you anything more? Your testimony has been very interesting, and instructive. You certainly have covered the subject.

Dr. CARLSON. I have nothing more on the fundamental data.
I want to repeat again that I am here as an individual.
Senator ELLENDER. Let me ask you this question.

Dr. CARLSON. Certainly.

Senator ELLENDER. In producing butter on the one hand and in producing margarine on the other hand, is the chance of getting a pure product greater in the manufacture of butter or in the manufacture of margarine?

Dr. CARLSON. Well, I think that it would depend, Senator, on the size of the concern and the responsibility of the concern.

The churning in the individual family as was used formerly in bring ing butter to the small market in town, there is a chance for all kind of dirt and even infections to get in.

But I think when you come to the big, reputable butter manufac turers the chance of such impurity or danger is down to a minimum. So, with the big margarine manufacturers, the same. I think they are about on a par.

Senator ELLENDER. I see.

Dr. CARLSON. There is no "small town producer" if you please, producing margarine. They cannot stand the pressure.

Senator ELLENDER. They are all trying to make the best article possible?

Dr. CARLSON. I know of one concern that is making first-class butter and it is also making first-class margarine. It is one of the biggest food producers in the United States.

Senator AIKEN. Are not the products of the 18 margarine manufacturers in the United States practically identical?

Dr. CARLSON. No. I would not say identical chemically. Nutritionally they are practically identical; yes.

I think they put in about an equal amount of vitamine A and D, on the whole, so that the margarine is higher in those contents than winter butter but somewhat lower than summer butter. It kind of

evens up.

Some years back, at any rate, some of the margarines were made out of cattle fat, oleo oil, that is where it originally got its name.

They may vary in the proportion of cottonseed oil or coconut oil, or palm oil-well, coconut oil is not used now by anybody-and soybean oil. They use that also, the soybean oil. I know of some concerns that were troubled when they were ordered by the O. P. A. to use a certain proportion of soybean oil because that introduced a new problem of how to treat and how to fix it so that the melting point would be the same and the stability, the control of rancidity, and so forth. They are not chemically identical, if the Senator please, but nutritionally identical.

Senator AIKEN. That would be true whether they were made of coconut oil or cottonseed oil or of soybean oil.

Dr. CARLSON. Yes, Senator.

Senator AIKEN. They would be nutritionally about the same.
Dr. CARLSON. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. There would be no advantage in using more or less cottonseed oil than there would in using more or less coconut oil? Dr. CARLSON. Nutritionally, no. Now, when it comes to cost, I will not speak on the cost of raw material.

Senator ELLENDER. I see.

Dr. CARLSON. I will not speak on the difficulty of handling. I am speaking only of the nutritional value, if the Senator understands. Senator ELLENDER. I understand.

Dr. CARLSON. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. You, of course, would not know whether or not it would be more advantageous to use soybean oil than cottonseed oil or coconut oil?

Dr. CARLSON. No; I could not say. From the point of view of the manufacturer?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Dr. CARLSON. Or the cost of raw material or transportation. I have no information on that.

Senator ELLENDER. Dr. Carlson, thank you very much, sir. I repeat, your testimony has been very instructive and enlightening. Dr. CARLSON. I wish to thank you.

Senator ELLENDER. Is Mr. Lewis G. Hines present?
Mr. HINES. Yes.

STATEMENT OF LEWIS G. HINES, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. HINES. Mr. Chairman.

Senator ELLENDER. Mr. Hines, will you give us your name and tell us whom you represent, please?

* Mr. HINES. Lewis G. Hines, legislative representative of the American Federation of Labor, Washington, D. C.

Senator ELLENDER. Have you a prepared statement?
Mr. HINES. No.

Senator ELLENDER. Just proceed in your own way, sir.

Mr. HINES. As I said, my name is Lewis G. Hines. I am legislative representative of the American Federation of Labor.

I would just like to give an oral statement in favor of this bill. In fact, I think section 2, in its entirety, states the position of the American Federation of Labor quite fully, with possibly this exception: We do not favor this sort of legislation from a war program standpoint. We think that this legislation is long overdue.

It is very difficult to convince the six and one-half million members of our organization that margarine, which has earned a place in our daily diet, can be put on the market and sold along with butter with certain restrictions, namely, a tax of 10 cents on colored margarine.

We cannot understand why we have to pay 10 cents a pound for colored margarine, or buy it without coloring and take it home and mix it with the butter, whereas the producer can take his butter at certain times of the year, about 8 months of the year, I understand, and mix the color in with the butter and sell it to us, and does not pass on to us the job of mixing up the coloring in the product.

We consider this legislation, as it stands at the present time, discriminatory. It is discriminatory in that it withholds from millions of our people in the low-income groups, the choice and advantages of using margarine.

Well, you will say, of course, you can take it home and mix it up uncolored with the small tax of a quarter of a cent a pound—and incidentally, I do not see where that tax is removed here-it should be. There should not be any discriminatory tax at all on colored or uncolored margarine. Therefore we offer the amendment that the quarter of a cent tax be removed in this bill. We cannot understand the reason for this discrimination. It does not seem to have any place in this modern-day world of ours, when we talk so much about freedom in business and the removal of all restrictions that tend to grind down one as against the other.

Senator AIKEN. You are referring to restrictions in connection with the interchange of goods between countries?

Mr. HINES. No. I am not talking about that. I am talking about in our present-day set-up in this country.

If you want to talk about the tariff, we will talk about it at some other time, because we are not talking about the tariff here.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, the tariff seeks to treat every industry in the same way that is located in our country.

Mr. HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. This makes a discrimination as between industries located in the same country?

Mr. HINES. It is a discrimination between the producer of butter and the producer of margarine. It is discrimination, obviously, between the producer of margarine on the one hand and the dairy people, with the farmer who raises the ingredients which go into margarine, the processing of margarine.

Margarine has come a long ways from the old days when we were scared of our wits at the very mention of it.

Senator ELLENDER. I do not believe there would be much difference in putting a tax, let us say, on Louisiana potatoes and Mississippi potatoes, as against Idaho potatoes, saying that Idaho potatoes could be sold at an advantage, or, let us say, over Florida potatoes.

Mr. HINES. Yes, or Florida potatoes, because they do have a red potato in Florida, I think, and they will say that they cannot buy Florida potatoes without the imposition of a tax because of the color of the potatoes.

Here we have two products, margarine and butter, and 8 months of the year, and this is a conservative estimate, it is necessary to add additional coloring ingredients in the butter, and they do not ask the creamery to pay a tax, and they do not ask these other organizations in the dairies to pay a tax.

On the other hand, here we have a vegetable product, largely, today. And it is necessary in order to get it colored, give it the color that people will like, to impose a tax of 10 cents if you color it at the point of production.

Now, there is one other phase of this present law that I want to speak to. That deals with the restrictions in the use of margarine in restaurants.

The restaurants, particularly in the districts where workers go out to get their luncheon, say, workers with a low income, I mean by that, restaurants located in areas where the workers have a low-income group wage, if they decide to use colored margarine, there is a tax imposed upon them, merely because the cook or the chef directs somebody in the kitchen to put the coloring in. That does not seem fair to us. It does not make any sense to us.

While it is all well and good to talk about this proposed legislation as a war program, I agree that it is a war program, but I say that it is something separate and apart from the war entirely, beyond that, something that is long overdue, something that we must eventually get around to. There is no question about that. I do not think there is any question but what it is inevitable when we will put each of these on a par with the other.

I say, and I speak here for the American Federation of Labor, because it is our people who are affected, that this thing should be done, and it should be done now.

My own personal experience is that, due to the fact that butter has been out of sight as far as points are concerned, we have had to use margarine in our family. We have used it now for about 1 or 2 years. As the head of the house, I find that it has become my job to put the coloring in the margarine. Gentlemen, I object to that. I do not see why I should have to sit down and spend a lot of time putting that coloring in the margarine. Of course, I never get it right two times in succession. It is either too light or too dark.

And the question arises as to whether I am a good colorer or not-it is a serious thing when you are the head of the house, and you are