Senator AIKEN. On the product itself.

Senator ELLENDER. And not oleo oils?

Senator AIKEN. Which practically makes it a United States monopoly. One other thing which I would like to have: Mr. Hopkins has submitted the materials used in the manufacture of oleomargarine, colored and uncolored. For the year ending June 30, 1943, as taken from the Annual Report of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1943, 737, page 157, the figures are given on money into the Treasury Department, and I assume that they would furnish us with these charts for the years 1929 to 1939, as well, so that we could tell to what extent foreign oils entered into the manufacture of this product during those years.

Senator ELLENDER. You want to know over a 10-year period? Senator AIKEN. Over a 10-year period, or for those 2 years. I do not know that there is anything peculiar about those 2 years, except 1939 was before the war.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, suppose we ask for a compilation of all that was imported from, let us say, 1929 to date, and we can place in the record such of that information as we want.

Senator AIKEN. Yes. We realize that the tremendous use of cottonseed oil and soybean oil for the year 1943 was a use of necessity. What I would like to know is to what extent foreign oils entered into the manufacture of oleomargarine previous to the time the war came on and shut off the importations, and I think those tables would show us.

Senator ELLENDER. Very well.

Senator AIKEN. I have just one other statement to make. Mr. Hopkins said earlier in his testimony, at least he implied, that butter has less vitamin A than it ought to have, even less than oleomargarine. On page 423 of the House hearings, there is the testimony of Frances Russell, home economics teacher, Farragut High School, Concord, Tenn. I read this from her testimony:

However, in a telephone conversation on November 16 with Dr. C. A. Cary, Chief, Division of Nutrition and Physiology, Bureau of Dairy Industry, United States Department of Agriculture, it was learned that more recent research has disclosed that the vitamin A content of butter rarely ever falls below 9,000 international units per pound. On this point I quote Dr. Cary directly: "There are no price conditions in the United States under which the vitamin A content of butter per pound runs below an average of 9,000 to 10,000 international units at any period of the year."

Mr. HOPKINS. If I may, I will read to you from-I did not testify, myself; I only said it was higher and lower, but may I call your attention to a quotation from one of the reports on butter substitutes, dated February 1, 1943, by the committee on public health relations of the New York Academy of Medicine, which goes on to say:

Moreover, since the minimum vitamin A content of enriched oleomargarine is fixed, and the amount of this vitamin in butter may range from 500 to 20,000 units per pound, enriched oleomargarine is a more dependable source of vitamin A than is butter.

Senator AIKEN. You are quoting from what?

Mr. HOPKINS. The report on butter substitutes by the committee on public health relations of the New York Academy of Medicine. Senator AIKEN. Does the trade desire to have a definition of oleomargarine, or margarine, or oleo, whatever it is called, as it is now in the law?

Mr. HOPKINS. Desire to have the definition?

Senator AIKEN. The definition which permits the use of a very wide range of ingredients, including fish oil and intestinal fats. Would the trade be interested in having that definition only so that they would be required to use, we will say, cottonseed oil, soybean oil, and milk in the manufacture of oleomargarine, and cutting out the fish oil and suine, and all of that stuff?

Mr. HOPKINS. May I say I represent the national association. Of course you have asked me a question there that includes a lot of oils no reputable manufacturer would think of using in manufacturing a high quality food product.

Senator AIKEN. But nevertheless the law does permit them.
Mr. HOPKINS. True.

Senator AIKEN. Some unscrupulous restaurant people might make that stuff and serve it as margarine.

Mr. HOPKINS. There isn't any way you can legislate people into being honest. We have no hope of creating any legislation to force people to be honest. If a man is a crook, he is a crook.

Senator AIKEN. But they can make and serve a misrepresented product under the law, that people would not eat, if they knew what they were using.

Mr. HOPKINS. But when a manufacturer puts his name on that product and his trade-mark, it immediately reflects on that manufacturer.

Senator AIKEN. What about a restaurant keeper who buys lard and colors it yellow. He does not have his name on it. People who might patronize the restaurant would not know what they were using. Mr. HOPKINS. You say people who patronize a restaurant where they use colored lard cannot tell the difference?

Senator AIKEN. I expect a good many of them can tell the difference. Mr. HOPKINS. If they could tell the difference, what then? Senator ELLENDER. I guess they could, in the taste.

Mr. HOPKINS. They would not go to the restaurant again to have their lunch.

Senator AIKEN. The reason I asked that, Mr. Chairman, is because if the regulations regarding oleo are less restricted, we should see to it that only the most pure, healthful ingredients are permitted to be used in its manufacture.

Mr. HOPKINS. May I point out to you, Senator Aiken, that adulterated butter comes under the regulations with margarine, but adulterated butter is yellow?

Senator AIKEN. And there is a tax of 10 cents a pound on adulterated butter.

Mr. HOPKINS. But the consumer does not know when he goes into a restaurant, the consumer does not know if the adulterated butter has been sweetened up, he does not know whether it is adulterated butter or some other kind of butter, unless he can tell the difference in the taste.

Senator AIKEN. I think he should know.

Senator ELLENDER. I suppose the same thing applies to butter as to liquor. A lot of people sell liquor labeled as Scotch, but the bottle may contain some old rotgut, a product from the Tennessee hills. But anyhow, the purveyor of that kind of product would soon lose his patrons. Any other questions?

Senator AIKEN. No.

Senator WILSON. I want to ask him a question. As I understand from your testimony, this is a sample of margarine made from soybean oil?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is right.

Senator WILSON. Do you have a sample in the natural state from cottonseed oil?

Mr. HOPKINS. No; I have not, but I have this. This is crude filtered soybean. Here is a filtered crude cottonseed oil. This oil has been filtered. This one has not. There is a difference in the two. And here is a sample of refined cottonseed oil, which would be comparable. This happens to be a little cloudy, because it is a little colder, but ordinarily this would be clear, and there is practically no difference in those two.

Senator WILSON. So the color content would be practically the same?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes. I do not want to misrepresent as to the color of oils. Different kinds of oils, cottonseed oil and peanut oil, for instance, would have a different color. The request that we in our association are making in this bill is that margarine be put on the same basis, be given the same privilege of using coloring that the butter manufacturers use to supplement the natural color in the oil, so that we can appeal to the consumer, so that it will not be necessary for the housewife to color butter. And immediately the question comes to you, How does the housewife know she is buying margarine instead of butter? Every cartor is labeled margarine, as all of you know, every carton and ever liner on the carton must be labeled, printed in large type-I think it is 20-point type--"Oleomargarine." There is no possibility for anyone who can read of being confused. Senator WILSON. Your desire is to use the natural oil and use the coloring?

Mr. HOPKINS. To keep it uniform, just as the butter people do. Senator ELLENDER. Any further questions?

Senator WILSON. No.

Senator ELLENDER. Mr. Hopkins, I am amazed at the exhibit you have placed in the record. I was under the impression that oleomargarine consisted principally of cottonseed oil, and I notice that during the period that is mentioned in this exhibit that cottonseed oil, cottonseed flakes, and cottonseed stearine aggregated 207,917,799 pounds, in contrast to soybean oil, soya flakes, and soya stearine flakes of 195,087,400. What is the reason for the fact that the

amounts used have been so close?

Mr. HOPKINS. Well, because there have been two things-there has been a tremendous increase in the production or availability of soybean oil. I do not know how many people realize and appreciate what soybeans have meant to America during the war. The continuous increase in the production of soybeans has made it possible for America to take care of our own fat supply, when we formerly depended on imports a great deal, during this extremely heavy war demand.

Senator ELLENDER. Referring to the importation of what?

Mr. HOPKINS. Of all kinds of oils which we have not been able to raise. Now, gentlemen, I would like to point out that the soybean oil industry is a progressive and increasing industry. All through

the Midwest, the production of soybeans and soybean oil is increasing. They are refining a very satisfactory oil, and there will be after the war the necessity of finding outlets for soybean oil. And there again, we want to use all the soybean oil that is possible for us to use in margarine. I think if you could get the report for the period of the last 9 months, you would probably find that there is about as much soybean oil used in margarine as cottonseed oil, possibly more. It is around 52 to 53 percent, against 47 or 48 percent.

Senator ELLENDER. Has it been in most recent years that this vast amount of soybean oil has been used? Or about how long ago did it commence?

Mr. HOPKINS. You will recall that I testified that the average production of soybeans during the 1930 to 1939 period was around 36,000,000 bushels. In 1941 it had increased to 105,000,000 bushels, and in 1942 to 209,000,000 bushels. And I think, although I have no data, I understand that the 1943 production was even greater than that.

Senator ELLENDER. Mr. Hopkins, you stated that under the law you are almost compelled to remove the coloring matter from pure oleomargarine.

Mr. HOPKINS. From the oil.

Senator ELLENDER. From the oil. Do you know about what it costs for that operation?

Mr. HOPKINS. Well, the cost of the operation of bleaching is roughly a quarter of a cent a pound. But the tragedy of that is that we actually take food value out.

Senator ELLENDER. That was my next question. What is it you take out?

Mr. HOPKINS. I thought somebody might ask me that question, and I think I have a telegram that I received.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, is it material-what you put back in order to give it color?

Mr. HOPKINS. No; it is carrotene and other basic food elements of food value. I thought I had that telegram in my pocket. I have two suits, and I wore the other one.

Senator ELLENDER. In the final process, must you put that material back in some other form?

Mr. HOPKINS. You do not put it back. It is lost.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, is there any use for this material?
Mr. HOPKINS. You mean after the bleaching operation?

Senator ELLENDER. After it is extracted, after you bleach it.
Mr. HOPKINS. No.

Senator ELLENDER. What becomes of the byproducts?

Mr. HOPKINS. In the bleaching operation, the bleaching is done with fuller's earth.

Senator ELLENDER. With what?

Mr. HOPKINS. Fuller's earth. Fuller's earth is used in the bleaching operation. The oil is put through filter presses and the fuller's earth absorbs the coloring. Of course, the spent fuller's earth has no value.

Senator ELLENDER. In other words, the byproduct-
Mr. HOPKINS. The byproduct is gone.

Senator ELLENDER. And has no value whatever?
Mr. HOPKINS. That is right.

Senator AIKEN. I have heard a good deal lately about a product called soya butter. Does that differ from oleomargarine, and if so, how?

Mr. HOPKINS. I am sorry, Senator, I am not informed on that. Senator AIKEN. I do not know anything about it.

Mr. HOPKINS. I do not, either.

Senator AIKEN. But several people have told me about a product called soya butter on the market, and I am just seeking information. Mr. HOPKINS. Yes. I do not know that I ever heard of soya butter. I am sorry I cannot give you that information.

Senator WILSON. Is there any appreciable difference in the cost of treatment of cottonseed oil and soybean oil?

Mr. HOPKINS. No. It goes through the same process. The hydrogenation of soybean oil may be a little more expensive, because the iodine value of soy bean oil is a little higher and it requires more hydrogen to hydrogenate.

Senator AIKEN. What about the price of soybean oil?
Mr. HOPKINS. Eleven and three-fourths.

Senator AIKEN. And what is the price of cottonseed oil?
Mr. HOPKINS. Twelve and one-half f. o. b. the mills.
Senator AIKEN. Is there a ceiling on those products?
Mr. HOPKINS. Those are the ceiling prices.

Senator AIKEN. Those are the ceiling prices?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; those are the ceiling prices.

Senator ELLENDER. You stated awhile ago that if these restrictions were removed, that it would not affect the dairy farmer. That is, from the butterfat standpoint?

Mr. HOPKINS. From the butterfat standpoint.

Senator ELLENDER. How do you account for that? If these restrictions are removed, then would there not be millions more pounds of margarine sold?

Mr. HOPKINS. Senator, let us think of it this way. This is milkI will let my arm represent milk. That milk can go out in a lot of products. The purpose of milk is to get its greatest utilization in human consumption. We will have bottled milk, we will have condensed milk, we will have a cheese, and butter, and other different milk products that come from milk itself. Suppose this particular product we are speaking of first is whole milk. The consumer gets the greatest food value from milk-milk's greatest food value, when he takes milk just as it is he gets all of the minerals and the fat and the moisture as it is-he gets the greatest food value.

Now when you get down into the thing-think back about butter. Butter is 80 percent butterfat, 15 percent moisture, and 2%1⁄2 to 3 percent salt and other ingredients. But bear in mind that the serum solids in butter, that is, the milk solids, not fat, are very, very small, smaller than they are in margarine, because in margarine you have definitely put in about 16 percent skimmed milk in order to churn it and make it into margarine. But when you make butter, it goes through a washing process, and you wash much of the serum solids out, so you do not have as much serum solids in butter as you have in margarine. Now, the food value of butter is largely in the fat, the butterfat itself, because you have not much food value the serum solids are practically all gone, but you get the food value in butter from the butterfat. Now, if that food value can be replaced with a substitute