goes against the whole law, and that is all involved because we know that through experience.

There is no questioning of any of the worthy objectives and the fine intentions but we know what human nature is here and there.

Something happens and then the whole plan, the whole program is affected adversely.

But the States could cooperate more, some of the States could cooperate more.

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCORMACK. That is right, and get an awful lot more of surplus property.

Mr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. McCORMACK. Certainly the YMCA would qualify, if the Boy Scouts qualified on the Secretary of Defense level.

Would you not think so?

Mr. LUND. In my judgment, yes.

Mr. McCORMACK. The YMCA would qualify, and a number of others, and do you agree with me they ought to concentrate their efforts in that direction to see what the results are?

Mr. LUND. Yes, I have one concern if I am going to be consistent with the committee, and that is this, and in my own thinking, that if the Department of Defense, and I do not think we would have any objection if it was in the wisdom of the committee that they should run this program

Mr. MCCORMACK. Of course I am not agreeing with the action of the Department of Defense, I want the record to show that, the action taken in some of these cases.

Mr. LUND. I was trying to point out if we followed that to a logical conclusion, that the health institutions and the educational institutions of this country would soon be on not only the low list on priority, but would be on the list without getting property.

Mr. McCORMACK. No question about it.

Then we would have to try to put them above the others.

Mr. LUND. That is right.

Mr. McCORMACK. Certainly, for educational activities that are of special interest to the armed services, that would be one thing.

Then Public Law 152 of the 81st Congress, went further and said:

such as maritime academies or military, naval, Air Force, or Coast Guard preparatory schools.

We indicated clearly to them what the intent of Congress was, I thought we had.

Mr. LUND. There is a potential here that

Mr. McCORMACK. But they have made the decision now.

Mr. LUND. That is right.

Mr. McCORMACK. And they have got to accept the consequences.
Go ahead, Mr. Lund.

Mr. LUND. If we had, again, full knowledge of this total picture and there was this balance, then I feel confident that our Department would not be so concerned about some expansion.

But we have not the knowledge of the totals of defense, and therefore, it would be difficult, you see, for us to make a total evaluation on the total front.

We are confined primarily to what the law gives to us, in relation to that and in relation to the big demands now in shortage areas— we have a hundred thousand requests from schools for machine tools and allied equipment and our guess is we will have this year approximately 5,600 to deliver.

Now I could give you other illustrations in other areas.

The other people can contend that there are not items of contest, that they would take other things.

That is true to a degree, but as yet we do not know to what degree, and by continuing to study this, evaluating it and find what surplus property is being generated, we are hopeful that in the future we will be able on a basis of facts to make a more intelligent presentation to this committee, but we are reluctant now to enter into something unknown and risk the loss of a program that today is of real significance to the people of this country.

Mr. McCORMACK. Ask those questions.

Mr. WARD. I wanted to ask, Mr. Lund, if the bottleneck then does not develop around the fact that the staff time in Health, Education, and Welfare and General Services Administration, and the Department of Defense and in the States also becomes a commodity, so to speak.

Mr. LUND. That is true. That is perfectly correct.

Mr. McCORMACK. Anything further?

Mr. WARD. No more questions.

Mr. McCORMACK. Mr. Currie from the Bureau of the Budget is here, Mr. James D. Currie.

Mr. CURRIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCORMACK. What is your position on these bills?

What is the position of the Bureau of the Budget?

STATEMENT OF JAMES D. CURRIE, BUREAU OF THE BUDGET

Mr. CURRIE. Mr. Chairman, I am authorized by the Bureau of the Budget to listen rather than to speak.

I will just say we have consistently opposed these bills and I think my answer would be in the reports that we have made in the committee.

Mr. McCORMACK. Of course the reports will all be made a part of the record.

(The material is as follows:)

(H. R. 242, H. R. 737, H. R. 2504, H. R. 4007, H. R. 5448, H. R. 5451, H. R. 5460, H. R. 5470, H. R. 6537 follow; H. R. 10377 appears on p. 6.)

[H. R. 242, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to permit the donation of surplus property to certain community organizations

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the first sentence of paragraph (1) of section 203 (j) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949, as amended (40 U. S. C., sec. 484 (j)), is amended by—

(1) striking out "or" immediately after "public health," ; and

(2) inserting immediately after "civil defense," the following: "or for the purposes of organizations such as volunteer fire departments and volunteer rescue or life-saving squads, which perform community services that would be performed by the State, or its political subdivisions, if not performed by such organizations,".

SEC. 2. (a) The first sentence of paragraph (3) of such section 203 (j) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949, as amended (40 U.S. C., sec. 484 (j)), is amended by―

(1) inserting immediately after "public health," the following: "or for the purposes of organizations such as volunteer fire departments and volunteer rescue or life-saving squads, which perform community services that would be performed by the State, or its political subdivisions, if not performed by such organizations," ;

(2) striking out "and" immediately preceding "(B)"; and

(3) striking out the period at the end thereof and inserting the following: and (C) organizations such as volunteer fire departments and volunteer rescue or life-saving squads, which perform community services which would be performed by the State, or its political subdivisions, if not performed by such organizations, and are exempt from taxation under section 501 (c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954."

(b) The second sentence of paragraph (3) of such section 203 (j) is amended by inserting ", or for the purposes of the organizations referred to in clause (C) of the preceding sentence," immediately after "public health purposes".

[H. R. 737, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to permit the disposal of certain surplus property to State defense forces

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That (a) paragraph (1) of section 203 (j) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (40 U. S. C. 484) is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new sentence: “Under such regulations as he may prescribe, the Administrator may donate to State defense forces maintained pursuant to the Act approved August 11, 1955 (64 Stat. 1072; 32 U. S. C. 194) uniforms, clothing, equipment, materials, and other supplies under the control of the Department of Defense which have been (1) determined to be surplus property, and (2) determined pursuant to paragraph (3) of this subsection to be usable and necessary for such forces."

(b) The first section of paragraph (3) of such section is amended by inserting, immediately after the words "preparatory schools" a comma and the following: "or for State defense forces maintained pursuant to the Act approved August 11, 1955 (64 Stat. 1072; 32 U. S. C. 194)".

(c) The second sentence of paragraph (3) of such section is amended by striking out the word "educational".

[H. R. 2504, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To provide that Government surplus property may be donated to 4-H Clubs for the construction, equipment, and operation of camps and centers

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act (40 U. S. C., sec. 484) is amended by adding at the end thereof the following:

"(m) (1) Under such regulations as he may prescribe, the Administrator is authorized in his discretion to donate to 4-H Clubs without cost (except for costs of care and handling) such equipment, materials, or other supplies under the control of any executive agency as shall have been determined to be surplus property and which shall have been determined under paragraph (2) of this subsection to be usable and necessary for the construction, equipment, and operation of 4-H Club camps and centers.

"(2) Determination whether such surplus property is usable and necessary for the construction, equipment, and operation of 4-H Club camps and centers shall be made by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, who shall allocate such property on the basis of needs and utilization for transfer by the Administrator to 4-H Clubs."

[H. R. 4007, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to permit the disposal of surplus property to publicly owned water districts and publicly owned sewer districts

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States in Congress assembled, That paragraphs (1) and (3) of subsection (j) of section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (40 U. S. C. 484) are each amended by inserting immediately after "for research for any such purpose," the following: "or for the needs of any publicly owned water district or publicly owned sewer district,”.

SEC. 2. Such paragraph (3) is further amended by inserting immediately after "clinics" the following: ", publicly owned water districts, publicly owned sewer districts".

[H. R. 5448, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to make rehabilitation facilities and sheltered workshops eligible for donations of surplus real and personal property

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States in Congress assembled, That (a) paragraph (1) of subsection (j) of section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 is amended by inserting after "public health," the following: "rehabilitation of physically or mentally handicapped persons", and by striking out "or (4)" and inserting in lieu thereof "(4), or (5)".

(b) Paragraph (2) of such subsection is amended by striking out "or paragraph (4)" and inserting in lieu thereof ", paragraph (4), or paragraph (5)”. (c) Subsection (j) of such section is amended by renumbering paragraphs (5) and (6) of such subsection as paragraphs (6) and (7), respectively, and by inserting after paragraph (4) thereof the following new paragraph:

"(5) Determination whether such surplus property (except surplus property allocated in conformity with paragraph (2) of this subsection) is usable and necessary for the rehabilitation of physically or mentally handicapped persons, including research, in any State shall be made by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, who shall allocate such property on the basis of need and utilization for transfer by the Administrator of General Services to such State agency for distribution to public and other nonprofit rehabilitation facilities and public and other nonprofit workshops in such State. No such property shall be transferred until the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare has received from such State agency a certification that such property is usable and needed for the rehabilitation of physically or mentally handicapped persons in the State, and until the Secretary has determined that such State agency has conformed to minimum standards of operation prescribed by the Secretary for the disposal of surplus property."

(d) The paragraph of such subsection renumbered as paragraph (6) by subsection (c) is amended by striking out "or paragraph (4)" and inserting in lieu thereof ", paragraph (4), or paragraph (5)”.

SEC. 2. (a) Paragraph (1) of subsection (k) of section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 is amended by striking out "for school, classroom, or other educational use, or for use in the protection of public health, including research" and inserting in lieu thereof "for (1) school, classroom, or other educational use, (2) use in the protection of public health, (3) use by a public or other nonprofit rehabilitation facility or a public or other nonprofit workshop, or (4) research for any of such uses".

(b) Paragraph (1) of such subsection is amended by relettering subparagraphs (C) and (D) as subparagraphs (D) and (E), respectively, and by inserting after subparagraph (B) the following new subparagraph:

"(C) Subject to the disapproval of the Administrator within thirty days after notice to him by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare of a proposed transfer of property for use by a public or other nonprofit rehabilitation facility or by a public or other nonprofit workshop, the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, through such officers or employees of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare as he may designate, may sell or lease such real property for such use, including research, to municipalities in the State."

(c) The subparagraph of paragraph (1) of such subsection relettered subparagraph (D) is amended by striking out "and subparagraph (B)" and inserting in lieu thereof ", subparagraph (B), and subparagraph (C)”.

(d) Paragraph (2) of subsection (k) of such section is amended (1) by striking out "or" at the end of subparagraph (D), (2) by striking out the comma at the end of subparagraph (E) and inserting in lieu thereof "; or", and (3) by inserting immediately after subparagraph (E) the following new subparagraph:

"(F) the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, in the case of property transferred pursuant to this Act to public or other nonprofit rehabilitation facility or to a public or other nonprofit workshop,”.

SEC. 3. Section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: "(p) For the purposes of subsections (j) and (k) of this section, the term 'public or other nonprofit rehabilitation facility or public or other nonprofit workshop' shall have the same meaning such term has under the Vocational Rehabilitation Act and regulations issued pursuant thereto."

[H. R. 5451, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to permit the disposal of surplus property to municipalities

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That paragraphs (1) and (3) of section 203 (j) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (40 U. S. C. 484 (j)) are each hereby amended by inserting "or for the needs of any municipality," immediately after "for research for any such purpose,”.

SEC. 2. Such paragraph (3) is further amended (1) by striking out "and (B)" and inserting in lieu thereof "(B)", and (2) by inserting "and (C) municipalities" immediately after "1954”.

[H. R. 5460, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend section 203 (j) of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to provide that surplus property which is not used in the donable property program shall be offered for sale to States and political subdivisions thereof

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That subsection (j) of section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (40 U. S. C. 484) is amended (1) by redesignating paragraph (6) thereof as paragraph (7), and (2) by inserting immediately after paragraph (5) the following new paragraph: "(6) In the case of any surplus personal property which is not disposed of under the preceding provisions of this subsection, the Administrator, before offering such property for sale to the public, shall provide that States and political subdivisions thereof (including municipalities) shall be afforded an opportunity to purchase such property at a price not in excess of that at which such property was made available to Federal agencies before it was declared surplus. The Administrator may impose reasonable terms, conditions, reservations, and restrictions upon the use of any single item of personal property sold under this paragraph which has an acquisition cost of $2,500 or more."

[H. R. 5470, 85th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to make municipalities eligible for donations of surplus real and personal property

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That (a) paragraph (1) of subsection (j) of section 203 of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 is amended by inserting after "public health", the following: "municipal government" and by striking out "or (4)" and inserting in lieu thereof "(4), or (5)”. (b) Paragraph (2) of such subsection is amended by striking out "or paragraph (4)" and inserting in lieu thereof “, paragraph (4), or paragraph (5)”. (c) Such subsection is further amended by renumbering paragraphs (5) and (6) as paragraphs (6) and (7), respectively, and by inserting after paragraph (4) the following new paragraph: