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of fire-fighting surplus equipment throughout Government, and the inquiries that we have made to various defense units and other governmental agencies, we are unable to locate that which we feel would be any substantial quantity, and that probably we would disappoint a good many people if we took a position of supporting it and then could not deliver.

We do not know the answer at this time, and therefore we have taken the position, until the needs of the schools and the hospitals and civil defense of this country are met, that it is the better choice for the Department to make to attempt to meet that need before expansion.

We are totally sympathetic to the purposes but we are not as yet prepared, we do not believe, to go further.

Does that help you?

Mr. McCORMACK. Well, I am not answering questions.

Mr. LUND. I mean does that answer your question?

Mr. McCORMACK. I will weigh your evidence.

Mr. LUND. Thank you.

Mr. MAY. Mr. Lund, there is now, as you say, quite a bit of equipment that goes through the civil defense operation in the State to the volunteer firemen today.

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAY. You say they have to qualify, they have to have a unit, established training unit, in the volunteer fire-fighting organization to qualify for that.

Mr. LUND. They have to be established under the State regulation so that they are a legal entity under the State's jurisdiction and have a program of training for civil defense.

Mr. MAY. All these volunteer fire-fighting units, when there is a catastrophe, are usually called on right away whether they are actually a recognized part of civilian defense or any other organization at the time; aren't they?

Mr. LUND. That is true.

Now there is one other aspect of that that might be helpful to the group, and that is when there is such a catastrophe, by a certification of the civil defense, any available material in warehouse and even others in reserve can be called into use. But it then must go back onto that reserve for use at another time.

Mr. MAY. Of course I have seen that happen recently in New England with our floods and hurricanes and so forth where the volunteer firemen have been called upon immediately along with the National Guard.

In other words, the problem in your mind is that it is too difficult to proceed to allow that extra step beyond civilian defense to let every volunteer fire-fighting organization into this program because you are afraid you would not have enough material and equipment and manpower to handle the bookkeeping of it to extend it to that group; is that correct?

Mr. LUND. That is, I think, the chief factor in it.

I think there are other auxiliary things that could be considered. For example, where we assign any equipment to a school or to a defense unit for utilization, that material is there available in the community for use in an emergency also, so there is that supplemental assistance that can come into play.

But the facts are, we really do not have enough information to know what the backlog or potential in this area is, and we felt we should try to ascertain that before we take a different position.

Mr. MAY. From what you have said you would probably, though, put the volunteer fire-fighting units perhaps next in priority as far as being included in this program?

Mr. LUND. The question that you raise, as it deals with priorities, again gives us some pause.

In 1944 through 1948, when there was a priority system in vogue, that system was found to be both costly and expensive to government because of the fact that you had to allow all groups to come into your warehouses and areas of storage to review the material to see whether they wanted it. The cost of housing, storing for long periods of time, became so high that the Congress at that time determined there should be no priority system, and we are concerned about the reestablishment of a priority system.

I do not say that it is insurmountable, but I say it is a real administrative headache to find a way to get equitable distribution, but I think I would have to go back to the original statement that basically I think we should make an effort to do a review to ascertain the possible quantity in this area.

I think it would be in error to build up in the minds of the people that there is a large quantity of this equipment, only to disappoint

them.

Mr. McCORMACK. Any further questions, Mr. May?

Mr. MAY. I guess not, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McCORMACK. Mr. Fogarty, do you want to ask any questions of Mr. Lund?

Mr. FOGARTY. No. The only observation I would like to make is when you compare the local units of civilian defense of any State in the country today to any volunteer fire departments there is not any comparison because we do not have good focal civilian defense units in any State that I know of or any city or any town.

I do not know of a State that has a good program. Even the Federal Government has been attempting to bring this to the attention of the States, and the local communities. There just is not that interest.

There certainly is more interest and more activity in the field of volunteer firemen than there is in civilian defense, and I would hope if any priorities are to be established or if your thinking is in that direction that you would give that some consideration.

Mr. McCORMACK. Well, it is not a question of priority, Mr. Lund. It is a question of being covered. We have no priority now except the Defense Department has given a priority to certain groups that has caused them a headache; is that right?

Mr. LUND. That is correct.

Mr. McCORMACK. In other words, if the volunteer firemen go over and convince the Secretary of Defense that they are at least on a comparable status to the Boy Scouts, they can get a real priority.

Mr. LUND. That is correct.

Mr. McCORMACK. They do not have to go through the whoever the State director on surplus property might be in a particular State, but they can go directly themselves and if they are recognized by the Secretary of Defense as having military aspects and placed upon

declared eligible by him under that provision of the law which is in the Donable Property Act, which, of course, was a very extreme stretching, I am sure you will agree to that, they had to do a lot of stretching to get some of those organizations under that, and they' probably-there is not any of these organizations if the Secretary of Defense declares them under that provision of law, but what would be eligible for donable property and for a preferential status. Mr. LUND. That is the way we understand it.

Mr. McCORMACK. Even above schools, colleges, charities, they could go in and take the donable property even over the colleges and hospitals and schools and the other beneficiaries of the direct beneficiaries of the Donable Property Act; is that correct?

Mr. LUND. That is correct, as we understand it.

Mr. McCORMACK. However, you say that through the civilian defense they can get-if they comply with certain civilian-defense training programs, they are eligible to get property through the civilian defense?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir

Mr. MCCORMACK. But, on the other hand, would that not put them subject to the civilian defense now?

Let's explore that just a little.

Would that not put them-these are men; now we can get a look at the other side, my mind is open. I know the position taken by your Department and the Bureau of the Budget, and the General Services Administration.

On the other hand, if that took place, then you are losing the identity, submerging the identity of the fire fighters throughout the Nation as an organization to the civilian defense; are you not?

Mr. LUND. I would think there would be that element in it, yes.

Mr. McCORMACK. But the result would be that, yes, in part, anway? Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCORMACK. In part?

Mr. LUND. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCORMACK. What is your personal opinion about the fire fighters are they an eligible group?

Mr. LUND. I would certainly feel that all units that serve the public interest where there is Government surplus should have its opportunity to have its fair share when the needs that are the most basic are first met, and in my judgment, the most basic need is still to health and education.

The major thing again that bothers me as an individual in this is the fact that we have not been able to find reserve enough so that we think we could make a contribution to the fire fighters but we are continuing our study of this thing.

Mr. McCORMACK. It is a long study; is it not?

Mr. LUND. No; you see this only came up now in recent months on this particular fire-fighting item.

The study previously made related to other areas of the surplus property program, and not the fire-fighting equipment.

Mr. MCCORMACK. Well, you say one of your principal difficulties would be that administrative aspect and that involves the money to employ the necessary people?

Mr. LUND. That is right.

Mr. McCORMACK. Of course, you would have a very receptive field so far as your appropriation is assumed, with Congressman Fogarty, chairman of the subcommittee.

Mr. LUND. I do not think that is a major problem.

Mr. FOGARTY. May I say if that is a problem we will take care of it. If that is the only thing that is holding this thing up we will give you more help, if you will come before our committee next year and make the request or I will ask you the direct question so that you will be in position to answer it.

STATEMENT OF MANUEL B. HILLER, OFFICE OF THE GENERAL OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND

COUNSEL,
WELFARE

DEPARTMENT

Mr. HILLER. Mr. Chairman, my name is Manuel B. Hiller, and I am in the Office of the General Counsel of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

I think that we should not ignore, or the Department feels that we should not ignore, the fact that we have been faced with a multitude of proposals for extension of eligibility, and a consideration of any single one of these proposals without reference to the others does not present an entirely equitable picture.

For that reason, I think it becomes of some value to note that there are many other public-interest activities which are not now eligible and with respect to which equity might seem to indicate an equal right to attain eligibility.

The inclusion of all of these other organizations and institutions would then present some rather fearful problems in the field of administration, and in the field of priority and conflict of interest for the same property, and the Department has pointed out in its report, which was delivered to the committee only this morning, reiterating what we had previously reported in connection with some of these other bills which had been considered by the committee last year.

Mr. McCORMACK. Well, the thought enters my mind that in your statement, assuming this bill was reported and became law, then you lessen the inequity by one?

Mr. HILLER. We may lessen it as to that one but increase it with respect to the others who have not been included.

Mr. MAY. Also, Mr. Chairman

Mr. McCORMACK. I am just probing, you understand my mind is open.

Mr. MAY. I want to probe a little further.

Mr. McCORMACK. I want you to.

Mr. MAY. I would guess one of the basic reasons why all these kinds of bills have been opposed is that you hesitate to put one over the other or make a decision that would involve several others if you approved one, besides the other reasons that you gave.

Would not that be correct?

Mr. HILLER. That is one of the additional reasons that the Department has had in mind, and we had indicated in 1955, when it was proposed to extend eligibility for civil-defense purposes, that our approval of that proposal was motivated by the overriding interests of national security, that the civil-defense proposal represented.

Mr. McCORMACK. Well, don't fire fighters come within the same realm ?

Mr. HILLER. Well, as Mr. Lund had pointed out, those fire-fighting organizations which now have been designated under State law in accordance with the provisions-current provisions of the act, and whose State plans have been approved by the State civil-defense director or State civil-defense organizations are now eligible to receive property for such civil-defense training or operational readiness programs as the fire-fighting organizations may have developed.

Mr. McCORMACK. Well, has any of them been approved?
Mr. HILLER. I think so, yes.

Mr. McCORMACK. Do you have evidence of how many?

Mr. LUND. No, I could get it for the record if that be your pleasure, but I do not recall.

But there are a considerable number of the States that have those approved.

Mr. MAY. As Mr. Fogarty said, the volunteer fire-fighting organizations in many cases are much better than the civilian defense units and usually are the ones called upon in the area of disasters.

Mr. FOGARTY. Also may I add just one more thing that I think was a mistake when you considered civil defense, because it was not organized on a local level as it should have been, and never has been, and much of the property that has been distributed to civil-defense groups in States have gone to wrack and ruin because of the maintenance costs that were involved and they did not have the sufficient funds to maintain the equipment that was given to them.

And in many areas, some of this equipment was given to fire departments because they just could not handle it, did not have the organization to handle it and did not have the funds to properly maintain the equipment that was given to these civil-defense units.

I think if there is an area that should be investigated it should be what has happened to this surplus property that has been given to the civil-defense units because then I think that would be all the more reason why you should take into consideration these bills that have been introduced.

That part of the program has not worked out well.

The health, education, and welfare programs have, but this one, I think, might turn out to be a disgrace.

Mr. McCORMACK. Mr. Nimtz, do you want to ask any questions? Mr. NIмтZ. No, Mr. Chairman; I want to concur in what Mr. Fogarty said that the role of civil defense should be investigated but I also want to say a word of praise and commendation to these gentlemen. I am active in the Boy Scouts and Salvation Army in South Bend and we have seen the wonderful results of this program in these two fields. We have developed a new Boy Scout camp for our council although we go up into Michigan to do our camping. We have developed an excellent camp through the surplus property such as plates and silverware, tents, tools, and things such as that that our Scout executives have been able to locate in the Midwest from your program. You and your department have done a marvelous, effective job for organizations such as the Boy Scouts.

My only plea is there are a lot of tarpaulins, lanterns, floodlights, pickaxes, generators, and other things that these fire fighters could use. Yes, the civil defense, might have it in the community but when

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