I think

that to-morrow morning be used for the purpose of an informal meeting of delegates to compare views and to enter into conversation before the serious business of the Convention really begins. gentlemen will see the advantage of that from every point of view, I believe that is the intention, and I imagine that after we have adjourned now, I shall be authorised to arrange a meeting of that kind before the Convention enters upon the real business it has to undertake. I think it is right to give that intimation, in case any gentlemen should feel disposed to dissent from it.

Mr. MUNRO : I second the motion. Mr. DIBBS: Before the motion is put, I should like to say a few words as to the position in which we find ourselves. The Western Australian delegates, through the force of inevitable circumstances, not being present, I venture to suggest that no actual business be transacted by this Convention before they have an opportunity to be present. We might proceed with the preliminary business, such as the formal motions of which notice has been given by Mr. McMillan, and the President might deliver his inaugural address; but we should extend the utmost courtesy to the representatives of Western Australia to enable them to be here before any actual business results are arrived at. I believe these gentlemen can arrive by Friday morning.

Mr. MUNRO Saturday!

Mr. DIBBS: Well, even if they cannot arrive until Saturday, I think business should be postponed, or we shall be placed in a very awkward position, because we should either have to go back upon our procedure, or invite the representatives of Western Australia to join in what has been done. The President's address will, I presume, foreshadow what should be done, and the manner in which it should be done. The whole programme, in fact, will be submitted to us, and probably there

will be considerable discussion; but I think any definite determination should be deferred until our absent friends can be present, especially when we consider that Western Australia has but just become possessed of responsible government. I ask hon. gentlemen to give some consideration to this question, so that when we meet to-morrow it may be determined whether we proceed to business in the absence of the representatives of Western Australia, or whether we shall afford them time to be present.

Mr. MUNRO: I might be allowed to offer a word of explanation. As the convener I was in communication with all the colonies, and with the consent of the different colonies I postponed the holding of the first meeting until the 2nd March, to meet the wishes particularly of the representatives of Western Australia. All the other colonies wanted to have the meeting very much earlier. Then when it came to within a week of the time for the meeting I received a telegram from the Premier of Western Australia, asking that the Convention should be postponed for a fortnight to enable them to get their business through and be present. I then put myself in communication with the premiers of the other colonies, including New Zealand, and found that it was the almost unanimous wish of the delegates that no postponement should take place. I then communicated with the representatives of Western Australia, informing them that it was impossible to postpone the meeting of the Convention. I venture to suggest to Mr. Dibbs that we are here as delegates from the various colonies at a considerable amount of inconvenience to ourselves and the governments we represent. And whilst I am exceedingly anxious that every courtesy should be shown to the representatives of Western Australia, I do not think it wise, after we have deliberated over the matter and come to the conclusion to meet on the 2nd

March, to postpone the transaction of business for another week; I am afraid we could not afford to do it. I am willing that we should not pass any serious resolutions until the delegates from Western Australia arrive; I believe they will be here on Friday or Saturday. If we were to postpone our business until their arrival we should be departing from the understanding arrived at that we should be here on the 2nd March, and proceed with business as early as possible. I have no doubt that the week will be taken up with the consideration of preliminary matters. I do not think we ought to formally postpone the business on account of the Western Australian delegates not being here, because of the absolute necessity of our proceeding with as much expedition as possible.

Mr. BAKER: I venture to suggest with regard to one difficulty that if we do anything to which the Western Australian delegates object, we can easily reconsider the matter when they arrive. In the meantime we may do a great many things to which they will not object.

Question resolved in the affirmative.

Convention adjourned at 12:4 p.m.

TUESDAY, 3 MARCH, 1891.

Motions by Concurrence-Days of Meeting-Minutes of Proceedings-Notices of Motion-Rules of Debate -Rules of Debate in Committee-Official Record of Debates-Divisions-Admission of the Press and Public.

The PRESIDENT took the chair at halfpast 2 o'clock p.m.

MOTIONS BY CONCURRENCE.

Mr. McMILLAN: I have to move a series of resolutions, most of which are formal, and I intend to add one at the end with regard to the quorum, and then

one in reference to the question, which will have to be determined by the delegates, of the Chairman of Committees. I understand there is some difference of opinion with regard to this latter point, but probably that motion and the one with regard to the quorum can be taken with concurrence, without the ordinary notice.

DAYS OF MEETING.

Motion (by Mr. MCMILLAN) proposed: That, unless otherwise ordered, the Convention shall meet daily (Sundays excepted) at 11 o'clock a.m. punctually.

Mr. ABBOTT: I should like to know whether it is intended that the Convention shall sit on Saturdays, and if so, whether for the whole or half of the day? So far as I am personally concerned, I am quite willing to make my time suit the time of the delegates from the other colonies

Mr. DIBBS: And sit even on Sundays! Mr. ABBOTT: Yes, and sit even on Sundays, if it would suit those gentlemen. But perhaps they themselves would not care about assembling here on Satur days. I should like to hear some expression of opinion from the delegates from the other colonies.

Mr. MUNRO: In the event of the Convention not wishing to sit on Saturday on any occasion, they can easily carry out their intention by passing a resolution of which notice may be given the day before. I think it would be as well to carry the motion as it stands, because it will enable us to meet on Saturday if we think proper to do so, it being understood that we do meet on Saturday unless otherwise ordered.

Sir JOHN DOWNER: I take the same view as the last speaker; but I think it should not be necessary to give notice of motion in the event of our considering it inexpedient to sit on Saturday. There would be nothing inconsistent with the

motion as submitted if a member were allowed to move on Friday that we adjourn until Monday.

Sir SAMUEL GRIFFITH: As a member of the Convention who has a good deal of work to do besides that connected with the Convention, I venture to express a hope that we shall not sit on Saturdays, because I am certain that in my case one day in the week will be absolutely necessary to enable me to get through other work that must be done. I do not offer any objection to the resolution being passed in its present form; but I hope the Convention will not insist upon sitting on Saturdays.

The PRESIDENT: I would suggest that perhaps it would be better to amend the motion by inserting the words "Saturdays and" before the word "Sundays."

Mr. MCMILLAN: I accept the suggestion

of the President.

Motion so amended, and agreed to.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

Resolved (on motion by Mr. MCMILLAN): That the secretary to the Convention shall take minutes of each day's proceedings, which shall be printed and circulated amongst the delegates; that such official record of the proceedings be signed by the President and secretary; and that the secretary be authorised to make such record public, together with notices of motions to be submitted to the Convention.

NOTICES OF MOTION.

Motion (by Mr. MCMILLAN) proposed: That previous notice, in writing, shall be given at a sitting of the Convention of all motions to be submitted by the delegates, and that all notices of motions shall be printed and circulated daily amongst the delegates.

Mr. PLAYFORD: Of course we are to understand that this will not prevent a delegate from moving a motion without notice with the consent of a majority of members? Mr. MCMILLAN : No; a motion can be made with concurrence!

Sir JOHN BRAY: I would suggest to the mover that it would be desirable to insert the words "unless otherwise ordered," because an occasion may arise when it may be desirable to move a motion without notice, and if this resolution were literally interpreted, that would be impossible. I beg to move as an amendment:

That after the word "That" the words "unless otherwise ordered" be inserted.

Mr. ADYE DOUGLAS: What is the object of the amendment? These are merely sessional orders subject to the rules of the House of Commons, and therefore it would be surplusage to put in the words "unless otherwise ordered," because the Convention can always order it, and the insertion of the words would be an absurdity. The motion, as it stands, is perfectly regular, and is in accordance with the rules of Parliament. The proposed amendment will not be in accordance with the rules of Parliament, and it is quite unnecessary.

Amendment agreed to; motion, as amended, agreed to.

RULES OF DEBATE.

Motion (by Mr. MCMILLAN) proposed : That in the debates of the Convention, the ordinary rules of the House of Commons be observed; but that the President or Vice-President, as the case may be, have the same right as any other delegate to take part in the discussion of any question.

Sir JOHN DOWNER: I think this motion will require a little amendment. We understand that the President is to move a motion in the Convention to-morrow, and if the resolution is carried in its present form it may raise some question as to whether such a proceeding will be strictly in order. I therefore beg to move, as an amendment :

That the words, "to make any motion and " be inserted after the word "delegate,” line 5. Amendment agreed to; motion, as amended, agreed to.

RULES OF DEBATE IN COMMITTEE.

Motion (by Mr. MCMILLAN) proposed: That in Committee the rules of debate observed in Committees of the Whole in Parliament be adopted by the Convention; but that the President or Vice-President, as the case may be, have the same right as any other delegate to take part in the discussion of any question.

Sir JoпN DOWNER: I think it would be better to insert the same words in this motion also.

Mr. MCMILLAN: Iaccept the suggestion. Motion so amended and agreed to.

were to propose that "in the case of an equality of votes the question shall pass in the negative" I could understand the position; but otherwise no provision will be made for what is to happen in the event of an equality of votes. If the words "exercise a second or casting vote" were struck out, and the words "the question shall pass in the negative" inserted, that I think would answer the purpose.

Mr. MOORE: I scarcely think there is any necessity at all for the resolution. The rules of the House of Commons will

That an official record of the debates in the Convention be made by the Parliamentary Reporting Staff of this colony.

DIVISIONS.

Motion (by Mr. MCMILLAN) proposed: That in any divisions taken in the Convention the President or Vice-President, as the case may be, have the right to vote, and in case of an equality of votes exercise a second or casting vote; and that the names of the delegates be printed in alphabetical order, without reference to the colonies which they represent.

Mr. PLAYFORD: I think that in this case we are altogether departing from the usual parliamentary practice, which is certainly not to give the President or the Speaker a deliberative as well as a casting vote.

My own idea is that if the votes are so equal as to call for the casting vote of the President the question should pass in the negative. I, therefore, ask the mover to strike out all reference to the President or Vice-President having a deliberative as well as a casting vote. order to take the sense of the Convention on the subject I shall move as an amend

ment:

In

That the following words be struck out:-"and in case of an equality of votes exercise a second or casting vote."

Mr. MUNRO: I am afraid the proposed amendment would not carry out the object desired by the hon. member. If he

well do without the resolution altogether.

Mr. BARTON: The effect of the rules of the House of Commons will not be as the last speaker supposes, but it will be to give the President simply a casting vote, and take away from him altogether a deliberative vote; and that certainly is not the intention of the Convention. Because of the accident-if I may so put it -of Sir Henry Parkes or Sir Samuel Griffith being in the chair on any occasion, it is not intended to take away their deliberative vote. And would it not be desirable to avoid what would happen in case the suggestion of the hon. member, Mr. Munro, were adopted-that is to say, that in case of an equality of votes the question should pass in the negative? There is no reason why it should pass in the negative any more than in the affirmative. What reason is there?

Sir SAMUEL GRIFFITH: Because the question will not be carried by a majority!

Mr. BARTON: But it will be carried by a majority if the casting vote is exercised. I would suggest that the casting vote should be exercised, and the better provision would be to say that it should be exercised on the same principle on which it is exercised by the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly-that is, not in

a partisan way, but on certain principles, the chief one of which is the allowance of opportunity for further discussion, which is exactly what is wanted in this case.

Sir SAMUEL GRIFFITH: It seems to me that having conceded to the President the right to initiate a motion and to speak upon it, this necessarily involves the assumption that he will be able to give an original vote upon the motion. But I entirely concur with the hon. member, Mr. Playford, that the President ought not to have two votes. In fact, I think that a question carried in the Convention by a casting vote is practically not carried at all. If we have not a larger majority on any question in this Convention than the casting vote of the Chair, we may consider that it is practically negatived, whatever appears on our records. I do not think myself it makes much difference in what form this resolution is worded, because our conclusions must be arrived at with practical unanimity. Still there are minor matters in which no doubt every delegate would be willing that his own judgment should bow to the opinion of the majority. Whether his colony would follow him in that is another matter to be considered afterwards. But this resolution also raises the question whether the voting in this Convention shall be by individuals or by colonies? There is, again, a difference of opinion on that point, if not in the Convention, at any rate outside of it. I do not propose to discuss the matter at any length; but considering that we are to a certain extent a constitutional convention, met here to deliberate and to devise the best things to be done, and that we shall have to deal with a great number of details, I am disposed to think the better plan would be that evidently intended by the of the resolution-that we should proposer give our votes individually. I would ask the delegate from South Australia, Mr. Playford, to accept the suggestion of the

Mr. GILLIES: We have already passed a resolution which sets out that we are to be guided by the practice of the House of Commons. A resolution such as that proposed would certainly alter that determination at which we have already arrived. It would be inconsistent. The practice of the House of Commons is well known. That body does not invest its speaker with a deliberative as well as a casting vote, and, as the hon. member, Sir Samuel Griffith, has pointed out, the question is bound to be raised as to whether we shall vote by colonies or as individual members. I do not think we have an opportunity this afternoon, short as the sitting must be, to determine that question. It is an important question in the minds I believe of a number of the delegates, and I feel confident it is also an important question in the minds of many of the colonies which the delegates represent. Therefore if the mover of the resolution could see his way to postpone it and bring it up later when we can really discuss that question it would be, to my mind, extremely desirable. I do not think we shall lose anything by postponing this matter for the present, because the rules of the House of Commons will determine our practice for some little time to come, and in a day or two we may be able to raise this question without any difficulty.

Sir JOHN DOWNER: I would simply point out that if the practice of the House of Commons were followed the President would not have a deliberative vote, and I certainly understand that you, sir, accepted the position in which you are now placed on the distinct understanding that you were to have a deliberative vote, the question of a casting vote, of course, being left