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JULY 22, 2004


Brownlee, Hon. Les, Acting Secretary of the Army; Accompanied by GEN
Peter J. Schoomaker, USA, Chief of Staff of the Army; and LTG Paul
T. Mikolashek, USA, Inspector General of the Army



Kern, GEN Paul J., USA, Commanding General, United States Army Materiel Command; Accompanied by LTG Anthony R. Jones, USA, Deputy Commanding General, Chief of Staff, United States Army Training and Doctrine Command; MG R. Steven Whitcomb, USA, Special Assistant to the Commander, United States Central Command; MG George R. Fay, USA, Deputy Commander, United States Army Intelligence and Security Command; and MG Antonio M. Taguba, USA, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs, Readiness, Training, and Mobilization





Schlesinger, Dr. James R., Chairman, Independent Panel to Review Department of Defense Detention Operations


Brown, Dr. Harold, Member, Independent Panel to Review Department of
Defense Detention Operations




FRIDAY, MAY 7, 2004



Washington, DC.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:45 a.m. in room SD-106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator John Warner (chairman) presiding.

Committee members present: Senators Warner, McCain, Roberts, Allard, Sessions, Collins, Talent, Chambliss, Graham, Dole, Cornyn, Levin, Kennedy, Byrd, Lieberman, Reed, Akaka, Bill Nelson, E. Benjamin Nelson, Dayton, Bayh, Clinton, and Pryor.

Other Senators present: Senator Bill Frist.

Committee staff members present: Judith A. Ansley, staff director; and Leah C. Brewer, nominations and hearings clerk.

Majority staff members present: Charles W. Alsup, professional staff member; L. David Cherington, counsel; Regina A. Dubey, research assistant; Ambrose R. Hock, professional staff member; Thomas L. MacKenzie, professional staff member; Elaine A. McCusker, professional staff member; Lucian L. Niemeyer, professional staff member; Paula J. Philbin, professional staff member; Lynn F. Rusten, professional staff member; Joseph T. Sixeas, professional staff member; Scott W. Stucky, general counsel; and Richard F. Walsh, counsel.

Minority staff members present: Richard D. DeBobes, Democratic staff director; Kenneth M. Crosswalt, professional staff member; Evelyn N. Farkas, professional staff member; Richard W. Fieldhouse, professional staff member; Jeremy L. Hekhuis, professional staff member; Gerald J. Leeling, minority counsel; Peter K. Levine, minority counsel; Michael J. McCord, professional staff member; William G.P. Monahan, minority counsel; and Arun A. Seraphin, professional staff member.

Staff assistants present: Michael N. Berger, Bridget Ward, Nicholas W. West, and Pendred K. Wilson.

Committee members' assistants present: Cord Sterling and James B. Kadtke, assistants to Senator Warner; Christopher J. Paul, assistant to Senator McCain; Mark Powers, assistant to Senator Inhofe; Darren M. Dick, assistant to Senator Roberts: Arch Galloway II, assistant to Senator Sessions; Derek J. Maurer, assistant to Senator Collins; Lindsey R. Neas, assistant to Senator Talent; Clyde A. Taylor IV, assistant to Senator Chambliss; Aleix Jarvis and Meredith Moseley, assistants to Senator Graham; Christine O. Hill, assistant to Senator Dole; Russell J. Thomasson, assistant

to Senator Cornyn; Sharon L. Waxman and Mieke Y. Eoyang, assistants to Senator Kennedy; Christina Evans and Erik Raven, assistants to Senator Byrd; Frederick M. Downey, assistant to Senator Lieberman; Elizabeth King, assistant to Senator Reed; Davelyn Noelani Kalipi, assistant to Senator Akaka; William K. Sutey and Dan Shapiro, assistants to Senator Bill Nelson; Eric Pierce, assistant to Senator Ben Nelson; William Todd Houchins, assistant to Senator Dayton; Todd Rosenblum and Rashid Hallaway, assistants to Senator Bayh; Andrew Shapiro, assistant to Senator Ciinton; and Terri Glaze, assistant to Senator Pryor.


Chairman WARNER. The Committee on Armed Services meets today in the first of a series of hearings to receive testimony regarding the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by some-I repeat, some elements and certain personnel of the Armed Forces of the United States in violation of U.S. and international laws.

Testifying before us today is the Secretary of Defense, the Honorable Donald Rumsfeld. He is joined by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers; Acting Secretary of the Army, Les Brownlee; Army Chief of Staff, General Peter Schoomaker; and Central Command (CENTCOM) Deputy Commander, Lieutenant General Lance Smith. We welcome each of you today.

I have had the privilege of being associated with, and, more importantly, learning from, the men and women of the Armed Forces for close to 60 years of my life, and I can say that the facts I now have, from a number of sources, represent to me as serious an issue of military misconduct as I have ever observed. These reports could also seriously affect this country's relationships with other nations, the conduct of the war against terrorism, and place in jeopardy the men and women of the Armed Forces wherever they are serving in the world.

This mistreatment of prisoners represents an appalling and totally unacceptable breach of military regulations and conduct. Most significantly, the replaying of these images day after day throughout the Middle East, and indeed the world, has the potential to undermine the substantial gains towards the goal of peace and freedom in various operation areas of the world, most particularly Iraq, and the substantial sacrifice by our forces, as well as those of our allies, in the war on terror.

Let me be as clear as one Senator can be. This is not the way for anyone who wears the uniform of the United States of America to conduct themselves. This degree of breakdown in military leadership and discipline represents an extremely rare-and I repeat, rare chapter in the otherwise proud history of the Armed Forces of the United States. It defies common sense. It contradicts all the values we Americans learn, beginning in our homes.

Members of the committee, as we conduct this hearing, I urge you that we take every care that our actions, our words, and our individual and collective conduct in this hearing not reflect unfairly on the 99.9 percent of our uniformed personnel who are performing

remarkable tasks and, in some cases, making the ultimate sacrifice of life and limb to win the global war on terrorism.

Each of us on the committee has nothing but the strongest support for our brave men and women in uniform and their families. What we seek for the American people through this and following hearings, is only to strengthen and honor their efforts, not in any way to detract from them and their accomplishments.

I would point out that while some systems have failed, we are here today because of a courageous enlisted man and his lieutenant, whose American values compelled them to step forward and inform their superiors. They did the right thing. As this committee performs its constitutional duties in hearings and oversight, we are working in the same spirit as those two soldiers.

Questions before us today are: Who knew what, and when? What did they do about it? Why were Members of Congress not properly and adequately informed?

In my 25 years on this committee, I have received hundreds of calls, day and night, from all levels, uniformed and civilian, of the Department of Defense (DOD), when they, in their judgment, felt it was necessary. I'd dare say that other members on this committee have experienced the same courtesy. I did not receive such a call in this case, and yet I think the situation was absolutely clear and required it, not only to me, but to my distinguished ranking member and other members of this committee.

Members of the committee, our central task here today is to get all the facts in this difficult situation, no matter where they lead, no matter how embarrassing they may be, so that we can assess our response and, in the end, make sure that such dereliction of duty as in this case never happens again in the proud history of our country.

Senator Levin.


Senator LEVIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The abuses that were committed against prisoners in U.S. custody at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq dishonored our military and our Nation, and they made the prospects for success in Iraq even more difficult than they already are. Our troops are less secure and our Nation is less secure because these depraved and despicable actions will fuel the hatred and fury of those who oppose us.

General Taguba's investigation, as reported, paints an alarming picture of abuse and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners. It has enraged people here at home and throughout the civilized world. Humiliating and sexually abusing prisoners has nothing to do with the effective internment or interrogation of prisoners. In fact, such actions are counterproductive to those goals.

As we seek to bring stability and democracy to Iraq and to fight terrorism globally, our greatest asset as a Nation is the moral values that we stand for. Those values have been compromised.

To begin the process of restoring them, the people involved, who carried out or who authorized or suggested that we should "loosen prisoners up" or, "make sure they get the treatment" must be held accountable. So must anyone up the chain of command be held accountable who had command responsibility over the interrogation

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