martial is indicated, or non-judicial punishment of other types, they certainly will do so. They understand the gravity of this.

Senator ALLARD. I want to follow up on the ICRC report. Were they given full access? What main issues did that report raise?

Secretary RUMSFELD. I have the report somewhere here, and I'd be happy to let you see it. I'm reluctant to start discussing it, but I can say what I already said, that they found a number of things that they were concerned about, as they always do. It's helpful, I must say. The people then began to read it, agree or disagree, and make the changes. When General Taguba came in and made his report, he indicated that a number of the issues that had been raised last year by the ICRC had, in fact, been corrected by the command structure between the time that they were observed by the ICRC and the time that General Taguba's team arrived on the

scene.

Senator ALLARD. Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. I do have a written statement for the record.

[The prepared statement of Senator Allard follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT BY SENATOR WAYNE ALLARD

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me first join you in welcoming our witnesses this morning to discuss the troubling issue of prisoner abuse involving our Armed Forces.

I am deeply saddened and distressed over these allegations. When we commit our military to fight our country's wars, we fully expect each and every American soldier to serve as the model soldier-statesman, a standard bearer for people everywhere. Our American forces are to be feared for their unmatched effectiveness and valor in combat. More importantly, they are to be respected and valued for their humanitarian and compassionate conduct when carrying out their duties.

We are at a delicate phase now, introducing to the Afghanis and Iraqis the promises of a democracy and the better times ahead. A major part of our difficulty is the fact that these people simply do not yet know what democracy holds for themthey have yet to experience the freedoms and justice that Americans take for grant

ed.

Today, we rely on our Armed Forces to set this stage, to help these emerging democracies take root. What is so disturbing is that these allegations erode, to the core, the basic principles of liberty we so desperately need to instill and uphold across this region.

Based on my preliminary readings, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe we will uncover systemic problems in our military of wanton disregard for either the rule of law or general human rights. Rather, I believe the committee will see, in painful detail, a case study of the extraordinary damage that can occur when we experience such a disastrous breakdown in military leadership and discipline. It is of small consolation that there were many solid, upstanding soldiers in the middle of this leadership void that maintained their military bearing, sought command attention for these violations, and carried-on in accordance with the high professional standards we all expect.

find it extremely unfortunate that the activities of so few are now overshadowing the extraordinary accomplishments of so many. I visited both Afghanistan and Iraq earlier this year, and got to see firsthand many of our 130,000 uniformed service men and women undertaking heroic public works projects. General Smith's Central Command is engaged in building mosques, schools, hospitals, roadways, water, and sewage facilities, and other critical infrastructure desperately needed across the region. Now, however, we have a small minority of apparently misled, misfit commanders and soldiers casting a negative light over what should be, and what I hope will ultimately be, a proud accomplishment for our forces.

Mr. Secretary and Chairman Myers, I understand the scope of your job and responsibilities are enormous. I believe that comprehensive remedies to this situation need to be among your top priorities. Let's get out in the open the relevant information and answers we need to close this issue soonest. Let's get the solutions and preventive measures identified and in place soonest. Let's get the few soldiers and commanders-those that let us all down-before the appropriate judicial process

Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much.

Senator Lieberman.

Senator LIEBERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary, the behavior by Americans at the prison in Iraq is, as we all acknowledge, immoral, intolerable, and un-American. It deserves the apology that you have given today, as well as the apologies that have been given by others in high positions in our Government and our military.

I cannot help but say, however, that those who were responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001, never apologized. Those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized. Those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Fallujah a while ago never gave an apology to anybody. Wrongs occurred here by the people in those pictures and perhaps by people up the chain of command.

But Americans are different. That's why we're outraged by this. That's why the apologies were due. That's why I hope, as we go about this investigation, we do it in a way that does not dishonor the hundreds of thousands of Americans in uniform who are a lot more like Pat Tillman and Americans that are not known, like Army National Guard Sergeant Felix del Greco, of Simsbury, Connecticut, who was killed in action a few weeks ago. We shall not dishonor their service or discredit the cause that brought us to send them to Iraq, because it remains one that is just and nec

essary.

We have to get to the whole truth here, and nothing but the truth. We can't be defensive. We have to be aggressive about it. As Senator McCain said, we have to do it quickly so that we and you and, most of all, our soldiers can get back to fighting and winning the war on terrorism with determination.

As far as I'm concerned, we do have to know how this happened, and we have to know it so we can stop it from happening ever again. You've said that the behavior of those soldiers was fundamentally un-American. I agree with you. This goes way back to the first American declaration, the Declaration of Independence, where we said that every human being has those rights as an endowment of our Creator. That even goes to human beings who have been apprehended by our military, as they have been in Iraq, because they are suspected of being part of the terrorists, of the jihadists, of the foreign fighters, of the Saddam loyalists, who are killing Americans and Iraqis every day.

We know that people are flawed, and that's why we believe in the rule of law, to try to make us better and punish those who fall below appropriate humane standards.

In that regard, it seems to me when it comes to the treatment of prisoners and detainees in conditions of combat, the Geneva Conventions, adopted by the United States as the law of the land— and that have been implemented by U.S. Army Regulation 190-8. You made some controversial statements early on, after Afghanistan, that said the Geneva Conventions were "not relevant here," that, "by and large”—and I'm quoting generally—“American military interrogators or prison guards would try to carry out the rights of prisoners and detainees according to the Geneva Conven

tions." But I want to ask you today, as you look back to that, do you think you were right? Did anything replace the rules of the Geneva Conventions in Army Regulation 190-8? If not, why not?

Secretary RUMSFELD. Senator, the President of the United States made a determination in early 2002 that the Geneva Conventions' provisions did not apply to our conflict with al Qaeda, although he concluded that Geneva Conventions did apply to the conflict with the Taliban. That was a decision by the President. He determined that Taliban detainees did not qualify as POWs under the third Geneva Convention criteria for POWs. He also made clear that it was, and will continue to be, America's policy to treat detainees humanely and in a manner that was consistent with the Geneva Conventions. So the people were treated consistent to the Geneva Conventions, but he made a distinction with respect to al Qaeda.

Senator LIEBERMAN. Are these detainees, do you assume, members of al Qaeda? That is, the thousands that have been held in Iraq? Or are they in another status?

Secretary RUMSFELD. Oh, no, the President announced from the outset that everyone in Iraq who was a military person and was detained is a POW, and, therefore, the Geneva Conventions apply. Second, the decision was made that the civilians or criminal elements that are detainees are also treated subject to the Geneva Conventions, although it's a different element of it. I think it's the fourth instead of the third.

Senator LIEBERMAN. I appreciate that clarification, because I was not aware of that. Then you would say that all those held in prison, including those who were abused here, had the rights of POWS under the Geneva Conventions.

General MYERS. Absolutely.

[Clarifying information from the DOD follows:]

All detainees held in Iraq are protected under the Geneva Conventions. Enemy POWs are covered under Geneva Convention III. Civilians are protected under Geneva Convention IV. Those pictured in the photographs from Abu Ghraib are believed to be civilians.

Senator LIEBERMAN. Therefore, the fault clearly was that those we've seen, and hopefully not others, were either not properly trained, properly disciplined, or, in any case, not observing the law of the United States of America with regard to the rights of POWs. General MYERS. If I may, I think that's exactly right. It's aberrant behavior. The Taguba Report, if you recall, looked at four installations where the 800th MP Brigade had operations. They found abuse in only one, and that's Abu Ghraib. They found abuse in one.

Senator LIEBERMAN. My time's up. Thank you.

Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much.

Senator Sessions.

Senator SESSIONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

These are, indeed, actions that go against the very core values of America. I want to say, however, that I believe the military responded properly immediately. I want to join with Senator Lieberman's courageous and strong comments about how we do not need to dishonor the soldiers out there this very day, at risk of their lives, withholding firing weapons, being in hostile situations, taking chances with their own lives to protect the people of Iraq.

Yes, this is a serious problem, and we need to do something about it. Those who dishonored those soldiers need to be punished. But I feel very strongly that the military deserves a lot of credit here, and I want to go over this chart, General Myers, that you have there.

First, I want to say to Secretary Rumsfeld and all of you there, thank you for your leadership. Yes, you have some complainers in Congress, but we voted to send our soldiers to this effort. Nobody else authorized you to go. We voted to support it. I would also note that the terrorists aren't happy with you, either. I saw they put a $15 million bounty on your head, along with General Kimmitt and General Sanchez. I thank you for that service.

General MYERS. Senator Sessions, you want me to go through the

Senator SESSIONS. I would just like to ask you a little bit about it, because our time is short.

General MYERS. Right.

Senator SESSIONS. As I see it, back in August of last year you appointed an assessment team. Is that right? Long before this occurred.

General MYERS. Right. As I said in my opening statement, I think we ought to have a lot of confidence in our military leadership handling the detention situation in Iraq. It was on August 11 that General Sanchez was worried about detention and interrogation operations, and that resulted in General Miller going over there and submitting a report.

We pushed General Miller on them in August 2003 because he was so successful in Guantanamo-to look at our detention operations to make sure that we're doing it right, and also that it's well connected, that the intelligence is getting to the analysts and so forth, so we can win this.

Senator SESSIONS. Now, was this in response to any incident or was it on your own initiative?

General MYERS. That was our own initiative. That was a discussion between the Secretary and myself and our staffs.

You can see from the chart when the abuse took place. We were told of the abuse on January 13, 2004. The next day, the Army police, the CID, went on that particular case. We talked about the press.

Senator SESSIONS. No, let's slow down. On January 14, you started a criminal investigation based on the complaint of one soldier. General MYERS. They did.

Senator SESSIONS. On January 16, Major General Kimmitt briefed the world about the investigation commencing. Is that correct?

General MYERS. Right, and he talked about abuse. As I remember it, he said there may be pictures involved with this abuse, as well. Then it was 3 days later where General Sanchez-based on that criminal investigation he had started-asked for an investigating officer who turned out to be General Taguba. The general was asked to look at this MP brigade that was responsible for detention operations in Abu Ghraib and those three other locations.

I know we need to do things quickly with full disclosure and everything. But this 15-6 Report, the Taguba Report, can result in

administrative actions such as relief from command and other administrative admonishments to military personnel. So it has to be very thorough. That's why you'll see it was requested on January 16. It was not approved by General Sanchez until May 1. As you go through the various chains, the people that are implicated in wrongdoing have a chance to look at the report and rebut the report. That's part of this process that I think we owe it to our troops to uphold.

Senator SESSIONS. But, General Myers, on January 18, according to that chart, the 320th MP Battalion had leadership suspended. Is that correct?

General MYERS. That's correct.

Senator SESSIONS. That's a pretty dramatic action to take, is it not?

General MYERS. It is. But the first look by the Army CID, I think, gave them indications that things were not right.

Senator SESSIONS. Now, this wasn't by any pressure from the media or anyone else; this was the military's own decision that their high standards had been violated, and that strong actions should be taken.

General MYERS. This was General Abizaid, General Sanchez, and their folks, absolutely.

Senator SESSIONS. I know some on this committee have complained when you took strong action against the brigade commander publicly, the soldier who fired a weapon as part of an interrogation effort. He had a fine record. You took strong action on that case, and some of us in Congress complained you were too tough. General MYERS. The standards are the standards, Senator. Chairman WARNER. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator SESSIONS. We thank you for your service, all of you. Chairman WARNER. Senator Reed?

Senator REED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by stating the obvious. For the next 50 years, in the Islamic world and many other parts of the world, the image of the United States will be that of an American dragging a prostrate, naked Iraqi across the floor on a leash. This is unfair to the honor and the courage to our soldiers, but, unfortunately, I think it's become a fact. This is disastrous.

Mr. Secretary, let me follow up on your proposed commission. As I understand your comments, this commission, or this group of people, will not have the authority to call witnesses to obtain material independent of your investigation. They will simply review what you're doing?

Secretary RUMSFELD. We will be happy to give you a copy of the draft charge to the individuals. They will have, I can assure you, the absolute full cooperation of the DOD.