grower as contrasted with his less efficient neighbor. That has some problems to it, too, sir.

On these two plans whether poundage-acreage control or poundage strictly, I have some reservations about grower acceptance to them. We only had one poundage experience in this quota program, Mr. Cooley, and you remember it quite well in 1938, when we came out with a poundage-acreage combination in both flue-cured and burley and the growers turned it down in 1939 after a year's experience.

I don't know what their acceptance might be. I am not saying that one could not be worked out. I want that definitely to be made clear. Does that answer your question?

Mr. WATTS. Yes, sir; Mr. Taylor, as I gather the general tenor of your statement, the tobacco situation is in a very precarious position. Mr. TAYLOR. I think so.

Mr. WATTS. And it is going to take some drastic action if we are to put it on a sound workable basis.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe it sincerely.

Mr. WATTS. In speaking of the cuts which have been estimated, I believe by the Department of Agriculture, or at least tentatively agreed to, they would be in the neighborhood of 50 percent ?

Mr. TAYLOR. That statement was made here by the Department last week, yes, sir.

Mr. WATTS. Your idea is—and I am speaking particularly about the small grower-that unless he is willing to accept some small share of the cuts, that his other alternative is to let the program go down the drain and not have a program whatsoever.

Mr. TAYLOR. I think it is inevitable, sir.

Mr. WATTS. What is your opinion as to the effect on the referendum this fall in the event that a fair and equitable cut is not made somewhere across the board, even though you cushion for the small grower?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't quite get what you mean by cushion this fall. He is going to be completely cushioned this fall if we don't change the law.

Mr. WATTS. I asked two questions together. I will withdraw the question and start again.

What in your opinion will be the result of the referendum this fall if we do not provide some method by which the small grower will share some of the cut and all the cuts are placed on the large grower?

Mr. TAYLOR. I could not in good grace recommend to anybody, big or small, that he vote favorably for such a program. I cannot, gentlemen, in good grace be a party to what this has gotten to be—an unsound WPA deal. I do not believe that the referendum will carry. If it carries by a small majority, it will be impossible to administer it. That is my honest conviction, sir.

Mr. WATTS. And it is a fact that under the present situation in which your burley finds itself there are really no large growers in the sense of any proportion.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is correct, as I see it.

Mr. WATTS. Most all of those that are above 0.7 fall in a range of from 0.7 to 2 acres.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is right.

Mr. WATTS. And there are very few of them over 2 acres.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is right.

Mr. WATTS. What would be the impact on a community where a farmer had an acre and four-tenths of tobacco and his neighbor had 0.7, and the 50 percent came along and cut the 1.4 acres man down to 0.7 man's size, and his neighbor suffered no serious consequences at all? Mr. TAYLOR. That situation, as I see it, would be chaotic. It will happen in every place in this country. All you gentlemen that are interested in tobacco have those little fellows that are 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5. The inequity and unfairness and injustice that will be pointed out by cutting that man in half and his neighbor sticking to 0.7, you cannot live with it in my opinion.

Mr. WATTS. I believe that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. BASS. Yes, I would like to ask a question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. I, too, would like to commend the gentleman for the very comprehensive statement he has prepared for the committee. I appreciate Mr. Taylor coming here. We all realize that he certainly is an authority in the tobacco field.

Going back to your statement which calls for a referendum, Mr. Taylor, what percent of the tobacco producers vote in a referendum? Mr. TAYLOR. It is exceedingly high. Some of the representatives of the department could give you a better answer than I can, Mr. Bass. Mr. BASS. Would 75 percent of them vote?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, I doubt it is that high. I know around 60 percent as a rule have voted in past referendums. I know we have commented many times that we usually have a higher percentage turnout in a referendum than in a national election.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you yield there? Can anybody from the Department give us that answer?

Mr. BASS. Can you, Mr. Todd?

Mr. TODD. It is usually estimated around 60 percent, sir.

Mr. BASS. Under this plan you have submitted this three-point program, Mr. Taylor, how many pounds of tobacco will be produced in 1955 if we should enact that legislation?

Mr. TAYLOR. I have no way of knowing. I don't know of anybody in this room that can answer that question.

Mr. BASS. Do you know. what the Department established as a quota

for this year?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BASS. What is that quota?

Mr. TAYLOR. Around 548 million pounds, as I remember, sir.

Mr. BASS. You said 548 million pounds.

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BASS. You also said you had no idea how many pounds of tobacco your program would produce.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is right, sir.

Mr. BASS. The Department establishes the quota on what kind of a basis?

Mr. TAYLOR. They establish a quota using a yield basis. They establish in pounds, and then convert it to acres in States.

Mr. BASS. The Department requests so many pounds of tobacco be grown?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Bass, you are getting into something now that gets rather technical.

Mr. Bass. I will change the word "request.

Mr. TAYLOR. I will try to answer your question.

Mr. BASS. Wait just a minute before you answer it. I will take the word "request" out. Do they establish a quota for a year's production in pounds.

Mr. TAYLOR. They established a quota last fall of 548 million pounds which has been in my opinion mistakenly labeled as the desired level. Let us be practical here, sir.

Mr. BASS. I agree with you.

Mr. TAYLOR. Nobody that I know of in the tobacco industry at that time who knew the situation, departmental officials included, thought that was the quota needed. But what did it do at 548 million pounds? It held the cut to 10 percent which made the cut equitable on the little man and the big man, and did not get into the very fight that I am trying to avoid in my proposal.

Mr. BASS. You say that the Department did not face up to their responsibility?

Mr. TAYLOR. Nobody else in the industry. I will take my share, too. Mr. BASS. How is the tobacco that is in the factories today measured?

Mr. TAYLOR. Stocks on hand.

Mr. BASS. How is it determined how much stock is on hand? Is it in pounds?

Mr. TAYLOR. It is in pounds.

Mr. BASS. How is the tobacco measured in the warehouses that the association has?

Mr. TAYLOR. In pounds.

Mr. BASS. How is tobacco measured when it is bought and sold?

Mr. TAYLOR. In pounds.

Mr. BASS. How many acres of tobacco will it take to produce 548 million pounds?

Mr. TAYLOR. That will depend on what kind of yield you get.

Mr. BASS. What is wrong with the tobacco story today? Why are we in trouble?

Mr. TAYLOR. Minimum acreage is my answer.

Mr. BASS. I am not talking about how we got there. I said what

is our problem today?

Mr. TAYLOR. Too much tobacco.

Mr. BASS. That is right. How is that tobacco measured?

Mr. TAYLOR. On the farm.

Mr. BASS. I mean the tobacco that we have on hand, the surplus that is ruining us.

Mr. TAYLOR. In pounds.

Mr. BASS. Then what we have to do? We have to find out how to get rid of pounds and reduce the poundage of tobacco that is going on the market.

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BASS. How are we going to do that unless we know how many pounds of tobacco is going to be marketed and sold next year?

Mr. TAYLOR. I don't know how much is going to be sold and marketed next year. I don't think anybody knows.

Mr. BASS. We cannot figure on acres. We know that, don't we?

Mr. TAYLOR. Don't misunderstand me, Mr. Bass. As I said originally I am not opposed to poundage controls if you have a solution. I will join you.

Mr. BASS. I am trying to work out a solution with you because I believe you will come as close to having the answer as any man I know. Mr. TAYLOR. I thank you, sir.

Mr. BASS. What is the objection to the people who are opposed to a poundage quota? Why do they object to it? Why have they told you that they objected to it.

Mr. TAYLOR. I will go over this again. I thought I covered it pretty well with Mr. Watts. I have 25 objections I have heard.

Mr. COOLEY. Mr. Taylor has just enumerated one objection after the other to the poundage proposition. I do not know anybody here who is advocating converting this into a poundage control basis.

Mr. BASS. Mr. Cooley, if you will yield, I will tell you one. I am. Mr. COOLEY. Maybe you are. You may call some of your witnesses to justify your position. I am not trying to slow down the meeting, but you have 11 witnesses. They came from great distances to testify. Mr. Taylor can be readily available at any time this subcommittee wants him here. To have him repeat again what he has already said in his statement seems to me will delay the others. We have Mr. Shaw from North Carolina who is the next witness, and he is a busy man. I would like the gentleman to bear that in mind. Let Mr. Taylor enumerate again the pound basis.

Mr. TAYLOR. I am available whenever you wish.

Mr. COOLEY. I know you are. I apologize for interrupting.

Mr. BASS. I would like to state for the record that all I am trying to do is to work out some sort of solution whereby we do not have to cut burley tobacco in 1956 by 50 percent.

I would also like to state that in my considered opinion, and in the opinion of several people that I have talked to, including Mr. Taylor, that the only definite and sure way of eliminating the situation is to control overproduction. He has stated himself that he does not have the slightest idea how many pounds of tobacco will be produced next year under his program.

I have drawn the conclusion from that and from other statements and other testimony that if we continue to establish quotas on an acreage basis, and continue the overproduction of tobacco based on an acreage basis, then we are still going to face the same problem we are facing now.

I would like to ask you one more question, Mr. Taylor, and then, Mr. Chairman, I will yield. Which do you think it would be easier to hide-500 pounds of tobacco on a warehouse floor or a half acre behind some hill somewhere?

Mr. TAYLOR. You have a chance of finding that half acre. You have no change of finding the 500 pounds.

Mr. BASS. On the warehouse floor there is no identification of tobacco.

Mr. TAYLOR. Mr. Bass, I don't want to get into a discussion here which might involve warehousemen, because I have the greatest respect for them. But I have been in the business of running down so-called violators of the program for many years. The tobacco busi

ness, the way it works, is called a looseleaf auction warehouse system. It is just that. I don't think the Department of Agriculture can get enough men to find those 500 pounds you are talking about.

Mr. BASS. Does the warehouseman have any responsibility to the program?

Mr. TAYLOR. Certainly. They are here today. They are cooperating 100 percent in trying to make this program better. They have gone a long way in the last few years.

Mr. BASS. That was the opinion I had.

Mr. TAYLOR. I am glad you stated it.

Mr. BASS. I am quite sure that the warehousemen will be willing to cooperate in the program.

Mr. TAYLOR. The warehousemen that are here will.

Mr. BASS. You said something about an unsound WPA program. Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BASS. We had a program in 1933, 1935, 1936, a WPA program. If the farmer is not allowed to make a living on the farm, we will have to find another WPA program to help him.

Mr. TAYLOR. I am trying to help him.

Mr. Bass. If we don't find some way to help him, we will have to give him a WPA program.

Mr. TAYLOR. I hope we never do. We might. He is headed in that direction.

Mr. BASS. If we don't find a way of providing him a chance to grow tobacco, he will have to make a living someway.

Mr. TAYLOR. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to say to members of Congress who are not members of the committee, we will not cut off anybody. We will set aside a day next week to hear the views of Congress.

We thank you very much, Mr. Taylor.

Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to rearrange the witness list a little bit. I would like to have Mr. St. Clair take the stand.

Senator CLEMENTS. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to present to this joint committee here today the president of the farm bureau in our State. I believe he has not served his farm bureau as long as some States, but he has an enviable record in that position in our State. He has served for a number of years as the president. He has served ably. I feel certain that he represents the expressed views and the unexpressed views of his association here today. Mr. St. Clair. STATEMENT OF BURL S. ST. CLAIR, PRESIDENT, KENTUCKY FARM BUREAU FEDERATION

Mr. ST. CLAIR. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, as has already been stated, I am president of the Kentucky Farm Bureau Federation. I would like to say that I am grateful for this opportunity of appearing here and trying to convey to you the thinking of our people in the Kentucky Farm Bureau.

Before I begin on my prepared statement, I would like to make a few comments to try to impress upon you the efforts we are making to really learn the views of our people, and then to try to give you what we appraise their thinking to be.