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time over the situation in burley. It was evidenced in several meetings where the subject was discussed.

The CHAIRMAN. It think all types of our tobacco should have a program that is workable and sound and one to which we can point to as not costing the taxpayers or the Government any money. That is what has been true in the past. I hope we will do whatever we can to help accomplish that for burley and other types of tobacco.

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. WATTS. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller, you remember this morning we referred to the large cuts that were in prospect for burley tobacco during the course of the next 2 years. I believe I fixed it at 50 and I do not remember you disagreeing with me, and I said I thought I was conservative.

If we tighten up the controls and the enforcement program and tighten up on the red card situation, is it your opinion that merely tightening of the program and the red card situation is going to solve the surplus problem?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. WATTS. That is all I have at the present time. It is going to take something further.

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you tell us what you have in mind?

Mr. MILLER. I have no further statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We appreciate your state

ment.

Mr. MILLER. I would like to say one thing, if you please, sir. The Department would like to emphatically state on the record that it is most anxious to have the opportunity to present the picture of burley tobacco surpluses and the problem as a whole to producers in the area of its production, in other words, to have the opportunity of going to the producing area and explaining to the growers in meetings there what the situation is, so that they might be apprised of the situation and act accordingly in their relationship both with the Department and the Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood that you suggested this morning that you thought your group would be ready to proceed by Monday to go. into the field.

Mr. MILLER. We can certainly start setting up the meetings. I do not know whether we can actually have time to get the word out and get the grower-producer groups together by that time. But certainly we will make our plans starting tomorrow.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sure the rest of the members join me in hoping that you can do it as speedily as you can. I am in hopes of doing something this year to help this type of tobacco.

Mr. WATTS. You are instructing him, I assume, that the committee desires that he take that action.

The CHAIRMAN. Just as speedily as possible. We certainly thank you, sir.

Mr. MILLER. I thank you for the privilege of the Department having this opportunity to present its views on the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if we could hear from Mr. Bridgforth at this time? I would like to say for the benefit of the committee members that are here, and the others in the room, that I am deeply grate

ful for the opportunity of having Mr. Bridgforth here. Not only is he from Virginia, but he is from my congressional district, the best congressional district in Virginia

Mr. JENNINGS. I would like to note an exception to that statement. The CHAIRMAN. He is a longtime friend of mine. In my opinion, he not only is one of the best informed persons on tobacco in Virginia, but everywhere else.

Mr. WATTS. I would like to join in your statement about Mr. Bridgforth, except the best district in Virginia.

The CHAIRMAN. I will say one of the best.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD B. BRIDGFORTH, ASSISTANT DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR FOR PRODUCTION ADJUSTMENT, COMMODITY STABILIZATION SERVICE

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Thank you, gentlemen. I hope the committee will bear those kind words in mind when they start questioning me.

My name is Richard B. Bridgforth, and I am Assistant Deputy Administrator for Production Adjustment. It is our responsibility to administer at the State and county level all of the marketing quota allotment programs, and the price-support programs, and all other programs of the Department of Agriculture which go to the State and the county through the county committees.

Mr. Miller referred this morning to a series of meetings which we had in Lexington, Ky., the first being the big meeting in which all groups were invited to discuss the burley tobacco situation. To follow that meeting up, we called a meeting of our State offices and our administrative people in the States to review our organization in the light of tightening and improving our adjustment program in the county.

We refer to performance as measuring acreage allotments. If therei s no objective, I will use that word meaning measurement of acreage.

At this meeting in Lexington with the State committees and the administrative group present, we asked them to review very carefully with a member of our office their State and county setups with the view to improve at any level from the State level down to the county level, the program that we have to administer to better compliance.

We stressed the necessity of having adequate force at the State level, qualified workers whose responsibility would be to get this job done. We set up the criteria for the organization to get this job done.

At that time we told them that we would review the budget situation and if additional funds were needed to improve the job, that we had done in former years, we assured them that we would make every effort to increase their budget.

Since that time we have met with the State committee from each State, and with the administrative officer. We have reviewed their organizational setup at the State level and at the county level, and we have suggested improvements and we have made available additional funds to improve our operation at any level that we felt that we could determine that it would be a definite improvement.

We feel that we have a setup now whereby at all times we can know the progress of the measuring job in all counties. We feel that is

necessary because we feel that the timeliness of the job has a big bearing on the program.

We feel that we have adequate supervision at the State level to make these spot checks in counties so that we can be assured of a better operation.

We do not feel that our operation in the past has been all bad. Of course, we recognize some weaknesses that we have had and we are trying to correct those weaknesses. We feel that we did a better job last year than we did the previous year. I think it is evidenced by your increase in red marketing cards. You have to catch a man before you give him a red marketing card.

We would take part of the credit for that as having done a better job. We feel more than that needs to be done, however.

We are making a broader use of aerial photography. The main object of that is to be able to detect hidden fields or to see all fields on the farm so that our compliance checkers can check on these fields. We have made arrangements for our people to meet with each county committee and sit down and talk to them and tell them the importance of getting this job done and done correctly. We propose to write each producer a letter, giving him briefly the burley supply and demand situation and telling him in as nice words as we can that we are out to catch the man that violates so that he will be on notice. I feel, sir, that we are in a position to assure this committee that we will continue to improve the job that we have done.

The CHAIRMAN. We certainly appreciate that fine statement. All of us appreciate the efforts that you are making to enforce the program contemplated by the Congress and desired by your Department.

I wonder if there is any need, as far as you can see, of any change in the present act or legislation? In other words, is there any need of legislation to assist you to improve the program or help you in supervising it?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. No, sir. Our compliance procedure is our bible, so to speak, and that is determined by the Administrator. In other words, I think we have leeway.

The CHAIRMAN. You think you have ample authority under the present law to do what is necessary from the enforcement viewpoint? Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. Senator Clements this morning asked Mr. Miller whether there was a need for additional funds to employ sufficient personnel to check up on this supervision. Do you feel that additional funds are necessary at your level of responsibility?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Not for this fiscal year, sir. We don't know what the funds will be for the next fiscal year beginning July 1. We have enough money to do what we think is needed for the rest of this fiscal

year.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. You are going to have to add an education program, and bring it before the people in the burley area, if this situation continues. You think that by that method you can get better compliance, if you and your department get down into the areas and get the word to them as to the seriousness of he situation?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir; I think that will go a long way. I think we have to do our job and the people will have to want themselves to get a job done well.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I have noted with interest the recommendations that the Department made this morning through Mr. Miller. I do recall that the committee on the Senate side last year, when this matter of penalties came up, had some discussion as to whether they should not go higher. I do not think I am violating any confidence now by saying that there was some talk of going to 75 percent on the penalty side. I took it there was some feeling that we were going to be troubled in this program.

Do you agree generally with the specifications that have been set out by Mr. Miller this morning?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. I do, sir. I think 2 and 3 should be tied together to accomplish what we want to do, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. You feel that with these recommendations, if adopted, and with better compliance, based on an education program of bringing this drastic situation to their attention, you might get the job done without the necessity of us taking a pruning knife and saying we might have to cut this another two tenths of an acre, or to the minimum?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Senator, I would rather not answer that question, or I would like to answer it this way. I would like to say that I think this goes a long way.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. In other words, you would like to try this method at this stage, and see if something else a little more drastic becomes necessary on whatever the performance record might be?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. I think, sir, as it was stated this morning, that the Department would not oppose any legislation that would do away with the minimum.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. It has been suggested by some group that maybe we might eliminate entirely the provision on the tolerance excess acreage. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. You have in mind the five one-hundredths acre. We used that, Congressman, for administrative purposes only up to a year or two ago. In other words, when our compliance checker goes out there and when the farmer is within five one-hundredths at the first measurement, we would declare him in. We are going part way on that. But for administrative purposes, if you measure a man's acreage, and if he is not over five one-hundredths of his acreage, we let it stand. But if he is six one-hundredths over, we destroy back to his actual allotment.

The CHAIRMAN. That is pretty close reckoning.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATTS. I would like to ask a group of questions.

Mr. Bridgforth, I believe recommendation No. 4 as proposed by Mr. Miller, the one that provides for reduction in base to the fellow who hides out his tobacco or falsifies his report of tobacco is something that would assist you and your department or division in enforcing the program, is it not?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. It would assist it, you say?

Mr. WATTS. Yes.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATTS. You recommend the enactment of that as a help to enforcement of the program?

60286-55-3

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. I do, sir.

Mr. WATTS. You said you discovered more red-card tobacco this year than you normally do. Are you in a position to have examined the record that is available in your department to say whether or not your aerial photography contributed materially to the discovery of excess tobacco?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. We can't prove it, Congressman, but we think definitely that it did help us; yes, sir. As you know, in your State of Kentucky we fly many flights every year so that it is current.

Mr. WATTS. Without naming the county, I understood that for the first time since the program has been adopted or for a long time, you did aerial photography in one county and the number of bases that were discovered in excess was more or less astounding.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. That is right.

Mr. WATTS. That had been probably reported as within their quota, that is. What has your enforcement angle developed in regard to the destruction of excess tobacco? In my opinion that is a field in which there have been many, many abuses.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Do you refer to the destruction in the barn?
Mr. WATTS. They have been destroying it in both places.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. We propose to get this performance job done in time so that we can destroy any tobacco that the farmer is in excess and wants to destroy as early during the crop year as possible.

Mr. WATTS. In other words, it is your considered opinion that it is a much sounder practice to destroy the tobacco in the field before the farmer has had to go to the trouble of housing it, than it is to wait until after he gets it in the barn and expect him to destroy it.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATTS. You are going to undertake through your efforts this time to see to it that sufficient personnel is furnished, I assume, and that that personnel is starting on their job early enough that the excess tobacco will be determined while in the field.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. That is right, sir.

Mr. WATTS. And the destruction will be carried on there.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATTS. Have you made any recommendations or have you given any thought to having this destruction occur under the direct supervision of the State ASC offices?

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir, Congressman, we do a certain amount of spot checking on that now.

Mr. WATTS. I know you spot-check me every year.

Mr. BRIDGEFORTH. We propose from the State level to do more of that spot-checking. I think that we are in a position to say that we will have much better control of that, sir.

Mr. WATTS. In that respect.

Mr. BRIDGFORTH. Yes, sir. That is to be sure when we say that a man is over two-tenths of an acre, that he actually destroys two-tenths of an acre.

Mr. WATTS. Of course, without accusing anybody of doing anything wrong, and I would not do that for anything, no matter where he is from, we do recognize the fact that in the election of these various county committees in the county, they are elected by the neighbors. Is that true?

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