GRUENING QUERIES KOREAN OBSERVANCE OF TREATY RESTRICTIONS

Mr. GRUENING. Are you optimistic that treaty arrangements for the purposes which you outlined to be those of the United Statesthat fishing by Koreans for halibut, salmon, and king crab will be prevented-will be carried out by the Koreans?

Mr. McKERNAN. Yes; I am optimistic, Senator, at least for the time being. Now, of course, there might be changes in policy and there might be some problems arising in the future, but at the present time, I have every reason to believe that the Korean Government intends to follow through with the general understanding they have given us. We have carried out our part of this agreement to the very best of our ability, and it is my belief and my understanding that the Government of Korea does not intend to license vessels to fish salmon or halibut in the North Pacific Ocean.

In my judgment, they very likely would not fish king crab without attempting to reach some agreement with us, because they are fully aware of our belief that we control king crab fishing on the Continental Shelf.

KING CRAB-HIGHLY DEVELOPED RESOURCE IN ALASKA

Senator GRUENING. Well, you know that the fishing of king crab would be very objectionable to the people of Alaska. This is a relatively highly developed resource in Alaska. Indeed, it is being overfished, probably, and certainly the fishermen of Alaska and our people generally would be very much opposed to any additional invasion of this field, and the taking, by foreigners, of this resource You indicate it is possible that they might go into this field.

"IN THE CASE OF KING CRAB, WE CONTROL THE SITUATION”

Mr. McKERNAN. No, Senator, you misunderstood me. I did not mean to imply that I thought the Koreans were going into king crab. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that they intend to enter the king crab fishery. What I did indicate was that I did not believe the king crab resource is in a different position with respect to the United States than, say, salmon and halibut. Salmon and halibut are creatures of the high seas. The king crab is a creature of the Continental Shelf. The United States controls king crab where ever it is found on the Continental Shelf off the coast of the United States. The United States does not directly control nations that are not members of treaties with us, does not directly control the fishing for salmon or halibut. We must attempt to encourage these nations to stay away from these two species.

In the case of king crab, we control the situation.

Senator GRUENING. I gather from your statement that the State Department would have no objection to the Korean vessels coming in and fishing for bottom fish, is that correct?

M'KERNAN NOTES FOREIGN NATIONS' "OBLIGATION TO COOPERATI IN CONSERVATION"

Mr. McKERNAN. That is correct, and, of course, our position here is that the Japanese and Soviets have very large fleets in this

area. If any other nation, not only the Koreans, come into this area to fish for any species off our coast, it is our feeling that they have an obligation to cooperate in conservation. But it is our position that with respect to foreign nations fishing on the high seas off our coasts and that of our fishermen fishing off the coasts of other countries, that they have a right to fish there and other nations have a right to fish there so long as they are willing to cooperate in the conservation of the resources-as we do, of course, when we fish off the coasts of other countries-and so long as they consider the rights of other nations to also conduct these fishing operations. Senator GRUENING. Why does the State Department take an attitude toward bottom fish different from its attitude toward salmon and halibut?

CANADA AND U.S. "ARE FULLY UTILIZING" SALMON AND HALIBUT

RESOURCES

Mr. McKERNAN. The United States considers that salmon and halibut are in a very special category. We have had very long and extensive fisheries for those resources. We have carried out very expensive research programs, extending over more than 50 years. We and the Canadians, in the case of the stocks of these two species in the eastern North Pacific, are fully utilizing them. That is, there is no surplus of these to be harvested by anyone else. Therefore, we believe that they are in a special category. It was because of this belief that the United States has put forward the principle of abstention that calls for nations who have not traditionally fished these resources to refrain from fishing them if the coastal nations are fishing them fully, if they are studying them intensively, and if they are carrying out conservation regulations according to those studies. We believe we are, in the case of salmon and halibut.

In the case of the groundfish resources, Mr. Chairman, you are aware that we have not developed the groundfish resources of the northeastern Pacific Ocean to any considerable degree, and this is especially true off the coast of Alaska and in the Bering Sea. In fact, we do not have groundfish fisheries of note for these species. Therefore, in the general context of encouraging the full use of the resources of the sea consistent with proper conservation measures, it seems quite consistent for us not to object to nations using these resources so long as they are willing to conserve the resources and so long as they take into account the interests of the United States and the U.S. fisheries.

GRUENING ASKS REASON FOR NOT ENCOURAGING ALASKAN BOTTOM FISHING

Senator GRUENING. Is there any reason why U.S. policy should not encourage our own people to go into the bottom fish fishery?

Mr. McKERNAN. Oh, Senator, U.S. policy has been to encourage our own fishermen to the very greatest extent possible to go into these fisheries. Of course, there have been limitations on funds, there have been economic problems, some of the problems that you yourself have worked on for a number of years in Alaska, such as the expensive transportation problems of these low-cost species. This has been a deterrent in Alaska and has prevented the development of ground

fish fisheries there because of the cost of transporting the finished product into the 48 States.

Senator GRUENING. Well, with the increasing interest in protein concentrate, would not that be a very logical field for the United States to go into and for Alaskan and other American fishermen to participate in?

Mr. McKERNAN. The United States is at the present time, of course, encouraging the development of this new product, and we certainly would like to have-I would like to see-the U.S. industry develop fish protein concentrate plants and products, and I would hope to see the day when this product is used extensively even within the United States. But, of course, I think it has tremendous potential for alleviating malnutrition and some food problems where protein shortages are found throughout the world. I think it has a great, great potential.

"COUNTER TO... NATIONAL INTEREST.. .?" QUERIES GRUENING

Senator GRUENING. Do you not think it would be a discouragement to American fishermen to go into this field if we encourage the fishermen of other nations to come in and subsidize them for that purpose? You say the Japanese and Russians are now fishing extensively in Alaskan waters for bottomfish, and the State Department has no objection to the Koreans coming in. Is this not rather counter to what would seem to be the national interest if we are hoping to develop this field for Americans in addition to the others?

Mr. McKERNAN. Mr. Chairman, I think you misunderstood the Department's position here. We are not encouraging the Koreans or anyone else, the Japanese or the Soviets, to fish off the

ISN'T FACT OF "NO OBJECTION" TO KOREANS "AN ENCOURAGEMENT TO THEM?"

Senator GRUENING. You say you have no objection to the Koreans coming in and fishing for bottomfish. Isn't the fact that you have no objection an encouragement to them?

Mr. McKERNAN. We do not agree with that. We have attempted to encourage Koreans to develop fisheries-as I indicated in my statement to develop coastal fisheries and to develop tuna fisheries We have not encouraged them to develop fisheries off our own coast We have no objection to this, we can have no objection, because this is the high seas and they have a right to fish out there, the same as w demand the right to develop fisheries on the high seas off the coasts of other countries.

Senator GRUENING. Yes, but our fishermen do not fish off the coast of Korea and the coast of Japan? Do they?

Mr. McKERNAN. No; they do not, because it is not economical for them to. If it were economical, I am sure they would.

"HOW DO YOU PROTECT THE ALASKAN FISHERMEN FROM VIOLATIONS.. BY THE KOREANS?"

Senator GRUENING. What guarantees do you have that if the K reans come into fish for bottomfish or any other fish, they will observe our conservation regulations and programs? How do you protect w

How do you protect the Alaskan fishermen from violations of these conservation regulations by the Koreans?

Mr. McKERNAN. Well, we have talked to the Koreans and have asked them that when they do come into the bottomfish fisheries, first, that they consider the problems involved in fishing alongside the great fixed-gear fisheries of the United States in this area-namely, the king crab fisheries-but also we would expect them to cooperate with us in developing an exchange of scientific data and a program of conservation that would go hand in hand with our fisheries themselves. They have indicated they understand this. They fully understand, for example, the High Seas Fishing Convention of 1958. This calls for cooperation in conservation, where the nations are sharing resources on the high seas. We have found that other nations are willing to cooperate with us in these programs. We have no reason at all to believe that a friendly nation like Korea would refuse or would hesitate to cooperate. In fact, the fisheries people in the government have stated categorically that they are perfectly willing to cooperate if and when they enter the groundfish fisheries of the northeastern Pacific.

SENATOR QUESTIONS M'KERNAN ON JOINTLY FINANCED VENTURES "U.S. GOVERNMENT-AMERICAN INDUSTRY"

Senator GRUENING. On page 13 of your statement, you refer to possible jointly financed ventures. I take it that means jointly financed with the United States?

Then later you say joint venture with American business interests. Have you any knowledge of any such arrangements being consummated or pending?

Mr. MCKERNAN. No; I do not. The U.S. Government, of course, has not either encouraged or discouraged this particular problem. Many companies in Alaska, on the Pacific coast, and Atlantic coast do have joint ventures with foreign companies and we are really stating what is quite obviously a matter of fact.

The visit of this Korean group to Alaska was a private venture. I am told that some of the State officials were involved in the invitation, but the U.S. Government was not involved. These are not government people who came to Alaska recently. We were not informed that they were going there. We were not informed that they were coming to Washington, D.C., really, until they showed up here.

Senator GRUENING. Would it be of interest to the State Department to inform itself of such arrangements being made or contemplated?

Mr. McKERNAN. Oh, yes; I would be very interested in knowing this.

GRUENING CONSIDERS IT "STATE DEPARTMENT'S DUTY" TO FIND OUT FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS BEING MADE OR CONTEMPLATED

Senator GRUENING. I would appreciate it very much if you would make the necessary inquiries and see what financial arrangements are being considered, being contemplated, or being undertaken, if any. I think this is a matter of information we would very much like to have. And I would consider it the State Department's duty to find one.

90-639 0-68- -3

Now, AID has given to Korea some $5 million in aid during the last 12 years for fisheries. This included $3,400,000 for construction of fishing boats; $300,000 for research; and over a million dollars for plants, marketing, and processing facilities. Current economic subsidy to Korea for its fishing industry amounts to over $200,000 for 1966-68. and includes a team of U.S. technicians "to provide technical advice on processing management to various agencies and organizations in the fishing industry for expansion and modernization of the fishing industry.'

Is the State Department aware of these acts on the part of AID? Mr. McKERNAN. Yes.

Senator GRUENING. Does it approve of them?

Mr. McKERNAN. Yes.

Senator GRUENING. What guarantees are there that this subsidy will not be extended into areas which the State Department presumably disapproves of?

INTERIOR'S BUREAU OF COMMERCIAL FISHERIES REVIEWS AND ASSESSES EFFECT OF PROJECTS ON U.S. INTERESTS

Mr. McKERNAN. The purpose of these particular projects is outlined during the course of discussions between the U.S. Government and AID. These particular programs are reviewed by the Department of the Interior's Bureau of Commercial Fisheries to assess the effect of these projects on the U.S. interests. And where there is a question raised about the possible adverse effects on the U.S. fishing industry. why, the Department, and most particularly my office, becomes involved. Over the years, of course, even when I was with the Department of the Interior, I found AID very cooperative and willing to consider the advice of the Department of the Interior as to the possible effects of these projects on U.S. fisheries--fishing interests. Senator GRUENING. Have you any questions?

Mr. BEASER. One or two, Mr. Chairman.

Getting back to the bottom fish, when were the regulations governing conservation of bottom fish issued?

specific

Mr. McKERNAN. There are no regulations, there are no regulations issued in the case of offshore bottom fish. I do not believe I said there were any.

"WHAT IS YOUR BASE" CONCERNING CONSERVATION OF BOTTOM FISH, QUERIES BEASER

Mr. BEASER. NO; you did not. I am sorry. I was just inquiring. In other words, when you are working with the Koreans with respect to conservation of bottom fish, what is your base?

Mr. McKERNAN. I see.

What we have done may I just cite as an example what we have done with both the Soviets and the Japanese?

In the case of the Japanese, we have developed conservation programs under the International North Pacific Fisheries Commission. In the case of the Russians, we have met with them and we have organized a scientific team that meets regularly and plans cooperative programs of research off the coast of the United States on those resources which are being fished by the Soviet Union and by ourselves.