on advice by counsel that I have no alternative but to invoke the first, fifth, and fourteenth amendments to the Constitution of the United States. Mr. SCHERER. I will put it to you as a fact: Is it not a fact that you knew Prussion as a member of the Communist Party when you were a member of the Communist Party? I will ask you to affirm or deny the assertion I just made. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Ross. Sir, I will have to decline to answer this question for the same reasons that I declined to answer the last question. Mr. SCHERER. And does that include the invocation of the fifth amendment? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Ross. Shall I read it again to you, sir? Mr. SCHERER. I asked you, just to be sure, whether you are declining to answer on the grounds that you decline to answer because of your rights under the fifth amendment. (Witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. SCHERER. I frankly didn't remember whether you cited the fifth amendment when you read all of the reasons for which you did not answer. Mr. Ross. I did, sir. The stenographer should have it in the record. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Prussion, will you kindly stand up where you are, please? You were previously sworn on this record? Mr. PRUSSION. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF KARL PRUSSION-Resumed Mr. ARENS. Mr. Prussion, during the course of your service as an undercover agent in that conspiratorial force known as the Communist Party, did you know to a certainty as a member of the Communist Party a person by the name of Ed Ross? Mr. PRUSSION. Yes. Mr. ARENS. Do you see him in the hearing room today, now? Mr. ARENS. Would you point him out to the committee? Mr. PRUSSION. There [indicating]. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Prussion, did you, in the course of your knowing Ed Ross as a member of the Communist Party, at any time engage him in conversation respecting the acquisition by him of information pertaining to the missile program of the United States? Mr. PRUSSION. Yes, I did. Mr. ARENS. Kindly, in your own words and with the utmost care. recite the essence of any conversation or conversations which you held with him or which transpired in his presence. Mr. PRUSSION. The conversation took place on May 21, 1958, at a Communist Party cell meeting in Palo Alto. Attending that cell meeting were Michael Shapovalov, Esther Shapovalov, myself, Doris Dawson, Gertrude Adler, Mary Field, and Sara Alchermes. Mr. ARENS. Would you repeat that and raise your voice, please? Mr. PRUSSION. On May 21, 1958, at a Palo Alto cell meeting of the Communist Party, which was attended by Michael Shapovalov, my self, Doris Dawson, Gertrude Adler, Mary Field, Sara Alchermes, Mary Wilson, Elizabeth Nicholas, and Isaac Folkoff. Mr. Ross, during the usual educational period, as is had at all cell meetings, was the leader of discussion on the subject "The Next Step," by Lenin. Ed Ross at that time stated Mr. SCHERER. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. The Witness Ross is seated there shaking his head at the statements made by Mr. Prussion. Have any of the statements which Mr. Prussion has made up to this point, at which you are shaking your head, been untrue? Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to answer my question. Mr. Ross. Sir, I have to respectfully decline to answer that question for the same reason that I have declined to answer the previous question. Mr. SCHERER. You were sitting there shaking your head "no" to almost every statement he made. Mr. Ross. I have a right to do that. Mr. SCHERER. I understand you have a right to do it, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to say whether any statement he made up to this point was untrue. You refused to answer. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WILLIS. Proceed. Mr. PRUSSION. Mr. Ross at that time was extremely active in the South Palo Alto, Stanford, and Los Altos Democratic Clubs, principally the California Democratic clubs. Mr. ARENS. By that time, you mean May 21, 1958? Mr. PRUSSION. That is correct. Everybody at the meeting had to describe their activities during the past month period. Mr. Ross described his activities within the Democratic Party and described them as very successful, functioning very properly, and he also stated that he knew when missiles were fired, and I will quote "types of missiles and where and what direction they are fired." He did not give any more detail. TESTIMONY OF EDWARD ROSS-Resumed Mr. ARENS. Mr. Ross, you have heard the statement there by Mr. Prussion. Is there any item of information in any degree which is in error or which you care to deny? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. Ross. Sir, I think at this point I will have to again refuse to answer your question for the same reasons I have declined to answer the previous questions. Mr. ARENS. Are you now, this instant, a member of the Communist Party? Mr. Ross. Sir, I will have to again decline to give you an answer to this question for the same reasons as I gave before to the previous questions. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness be maintained under his subpena, subject to further direction of this committee as to a time and place for further appearance, but that he be temporarily excused from attendance upon these hearings during our stay in San Francisco. 56597-60-pt. 3——————4 Mr. WILLIS. That is the order of the Chair. Mr. SCHERER. Mr. Ross, as a result of the contacts you had with plants engaged in the manufacture of missiles, did you obtain any information which you passed on to anybody in the Communist Party? Mr. Ross. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question for the same reasons that I have given on previous questions concerning this particular end. Mr. WILLIS. The witness is excused. Mr. ARENS. By excused, Mr. Chairman, you mean, of course, excused from immediate attendance. Mr. WILLIS. Excused at this time, but he is under continuing subpena. Mr. Ross. Thank you. Mr. WILLIS. The committee will take a 15-minute recess. (Members of the subcommittee present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Willis, Johansen, and Scherer.) (At the expiration of the recess, the following members of the subcommittee were present: Representatives Willis and Johansen.) Mr. WILLIS. The subcommittee will come to order. Mr. Arens, call your next witness. Mr. ARENS. Ruben Venger, please come forward. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. VENGER. I do. Mr. ANDERSEN. Mr. Arens, for the benefit of other counsel, would it be possible to announce the order of the witnesses? Some of them would like to go out and get a bite to eat, if they have time. Mr. ARENS. May I suggest this: that it is our present intention to call Mr. Ruben Venger, who is now here, and then pursuant to your request to call Mr. Ralph Izard. Then we had in mind calling William Reich. Then we were going to call Mr. Lafferty. Then we were going to resume with Mr. Prussion for a short while. So Counsel, those who would like to absent themselves to get a bite to eat now have an idea of what our intentions are. FROM THE FLOOR. May I inquire whether the list of witnesses just announced by Mr. Arens will represent all the witnesses? Mr. ARENS. NO; I was just giving the next few. Mr. WILLIS. Please proceed, Mr. Arens. TESTIMONY OF RUBEN VENGER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, GEORGE R. ANDERSEN Mr. ARENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation. Mr. VENGER. My name is Ruben Venger. I live at 420 West Railroad Avenue, Cotati, Calif. My occupation was a tailor all the time. Then I went chicken and poultry ranching. Now, thanks to the administration, I had to go back to tailoring. (At this point Representative Scherer entered the hearing room.) Mr. ARENS. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which was served upon you by this committee? Mr. VENGER. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. You are represented by counsel ? Mr. ARENS. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. Mr. ARENS. Where were you born, Mr. Venger? Mr. VENGER. In old czarist Russia. Mr. ARENS. When did you come to the United States for permanent residence? Mr. VENGER. 1912. Mr. ARENS. Are you a citizen of the United States? Mr. VENGER. At 21 years of age I became a citizen of the United States. Mr. ARENS. By naturalization or derivation? Mr. VENGER. Naturalization; of my own free will. Mr. ARENS. Do you know a man by the name of William Kimple? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. I don't think I want to talk about anybody else except myself. Mr. ARENS. Then tell us about yourself. Are you now a Communist Party functionary in Sonoma County, in northern California? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. I refuse to answer that on the first and fifth amendments. Mr. ARENS. Mr. William Kimple appeared before this committee and swore that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party. Was Mr. Kimple in error in that identification of you in that capacity? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. I give the same answer as I previously stated. Mr. ARENS. Do you have any income other than the income from the occupation which you described a moment ago as your occupation? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. I don't think it is any of your business to know of those incomes. Mr. ARENS. We are not concerned Mr. SCHERER. Just a moment. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question. Mr. WILLIS. The witness is directed to answer the question. Mr. SCHERER. It is certainly our business if it comes from the Com munist Party. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. The same as I previously stated. Mr. SCHERER. Do you mean you refuse to answer? Mr. VENGER. I refuse on the same grounds as I previously stated. Mr. ARENS. Are you now, this instant, a member of the Communist Party! (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. VENGER. I give you the same-I refuse to answer on the same ground as I previously stated. Mr. ARENS. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff interrogation of this witness. Mr. WILLIS. The witness is excused. Mr. ARENS. Ralph Izard, please come forward and remain standing while the chairman administers an oath. Mr. WILLIS. Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. IZARD. Yes. TESTIMONY OF RALPH IZARD, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, GEORGE R. ANDERSEN Mr. ARENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation. Mr. IZARD. My name is Ralph Izard. I live at 1335-A Columbus Avenue, San Francisco. I am a writer and a student. Mr. ÁRENS. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which was served upon you by this committee? Mr. IZARD. Is that a question? Mr. ARENS. Yes, sir. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. IZARD. I should think that the committee would know the answer to that question. Mr. WILLIS. Let me explain it to you. I would think that you would want that question asked. In other words, you did not come here voluntarily, you have been subpenaed, and we want the record to reflect that. Mr. IZARD. I would never be on hand here voluntarily. Mr. ARENS. Would you tell us if you are represented by counsel! Mr. IZARD. I am represented by able counsel who, unfortunately, is unable to speak up and represent me as I would like to be represented. Mr. ARENS. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for this record? Mr. ANDERSEN. My name is George Andersen. Mr. ARENS. Where and when were you born? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. IZARD. Chicago, Ill., the 19th of November 1905. Mr. ARENS. And a word, please, about your education? (The witness conferred with his counsel) Mr. IZARD. Education is a broad term. My education is still going on. I have had a very fine education the last 3 days here. Mr. ARENS. We are speaking about your formal education. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the Chair again admonish those who are in attendance that we insist upon proper decorum. Mr. WILLIS. I think the audience understands that very well. I plead with them to respect the rule. We will have to enforce it. Mr. ARENS. Please give us a word, sir, respecting your formal edu cation. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. IZARD. I attended kindergarten and, to the best of my recollection, the first grade in Chicago. I believe I attended another kindergarten in Flint, Mich. By the time I arrived in Lakewood, Ohio, |