It further shows that the Communist Party hopes out of this to build a very large Communist youth organization out of which it can draw members into the Communist Party as it trains and develops them. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that Mrs. Hartle be temporarily excused, in view of her interpretation of the Communist drive among youth and the significance of that draft resolution, and another witness be called to testify. Mrs. Hartle, please keep yourself available for further testimony with reference to other subject matters. Douglas Wachter, please come forward. Mr. WILLIS. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. WACHTER. I do. TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS WACHTER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, GEORGE BRUNN Mr. ARENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation. Mr. WACHTER. My name is Douglas Wachter. I live at 1830 Derby Street, Berkeley, and I am a student at the University of California. Mr. ARENS. You are appearing today, Mr. Wachter, in response to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities? Mr. WACHTER. Yes; I am. Mr. ARENS. And you are represented by counsel? Mr. WACHTER. Yes; I am. Mr. ARENS. Counsel, kindly identify yourself on this record. Mr. BRUNN. My name is George Brunn. My address is 41 Sutter Street. Mr. Chairman, I would request the privilege of rising to a point of personal privilege. Could I rise on a point of personal privilege? Mr. WILLIS. No. You see, you are here as the gentleman's attorney to advise him of his rights. What we have to do is to develop the information by question and answer. You have a right to advise him. That is the procedure. Mr. BRUNN. Very well. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Wachter, please tell us where and when you were born. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I was born on June 7, 1941, in Berkeley, Calif., at the Alta Bates Community Hospital. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly give us a word about your education! Mr. WACHTER. I am now a student at the University of California. I am a sophomore there. My education has been in the main in Berkeley. I attended a grammar school in Albany. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Wachter, since you were subpenaed to appear be fore this committee, have you issued public statements as to why you were subpenaed to appear before this committee? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. Yes; I have. Mr. ARENS. I should like to read to you a press account and ask you if this is a true and correct statement by yourself. It appears in the Daily Californian, under date of May 4, 1960: The 18-year-old University sophomore who has been subpenaed by the House Un-American Activities Committee told the Daily Californian yesterday why he thought he had been called to appear at the May 10th hearing. "I think the Committee wanted to subpena someone on campus in order to tag Cal's political movement as unamerican. I don't know why they picked my name; people have been involved in actions similar to mine," he said. Continuing the quotation: "I think they pick people whose ideas are liberal, radical or in any way considered to be nonconformist," the student said. "I will not be intimidated by the subpena; I am going to fight this committee's invasion of my political freedom in every way that I can." Is that a true and correct reproduction of the public statement you issued respecting your appearance before this committee? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I respectfully object to that question because it clearly violates my rights under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. (Document marked "Douglas Wachter Ex. No. 1," and retained in committee files.) Mr. ARENS. Now Mr. Wachter, do you think there might have been some other reason why you are under subpena to appear before this committee other than the reasons which you gave in this press statement; namely, that we are exploring into your liberal ideas and your political beliefs? Is there something else you have been doing that you think might be of interest to this committee? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I respectfully object to the question on the same grounds. Any question as to my political beliefs, associations, statements, deprives me of the right of free speech, press, assembly and petition. The House Un-American Activities Committee serves no real legislative or constitutional purpose. It punishes individuals and groups Mr. ARENS. You are reading from a prepared statement(Applause.) Mr. ARENS. You are reading from a prepared statement? Mr. WACHTER. Yes; I am. Mr. WILLIS. That's all right. Let him answer the question. Mr. ARENS. Continue reading, please? Mr. WACHTER. It punishes individuals and groups for their political ideas and associations through public exposure and condemnation. Mr. WILLIS. I am sorry. You are refusing to answer on the basis of the first amendment; is that correct? Mr. WACHTER. I have objected to the question. Mr. ARENS. I don't believe you have completed your answer, sir, and I would like to have you complete it, if you please. Mr. WACHTER. Thank you. I have respectfully objected to the question. It punishes individuals and groups for their political ideas and associations through public exposure and condemnation, often result ing in economic sanction. I cannot cooperate with the committee in answering any such questions. I feel I have an obligation as a citizen of this country to preserve the Constitution, and I do not feel that I can do so in good conscience by allowing the House Un-American Activities Committee to inquire into my beliefs or associations. Mr. ARENS. Now, Mr. Wachter, it is the information of this com mittee from unimpeachable intelligence sources that you were a delegate to the National Convention of the Communist Party from the Northern District of California, the Communist Party convention held in New York City in December of 1959. Would you kindly affirm or deny, while you are under oath, that information? Mr. WACHTER. I object to the question on the previous grounds. Mr. ARENS. Are you now, this instant, a member of the Communist Party? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. The same objection. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that this witness has not invoked that part of his constitutional privileges against selfincrimination, I respectfully suggest he now be ordered to answer the question as to whether or not he is presently a member of the Communist Party. I explain to the witness that the reason why we want that information is that it is a necessary first question in order that we may undertake to elicit from this witness information of which we think he is possessed respecting the operation of this conspiratorial force known as the Communist Party in northern California, of which we know he is a member. If he will answer that question, we expect to elicit from him information respecting the techniques of the Communist operation, particularly among youth groups in northern California, so that infor mation might be available to the Committee on Un-American Activities in appraising the administration and operation of the Interna! Security Act of 1950, the Communist Control Act of 1954, the Foreign Agents Registration Act, and other security legislation, with the end in view of attempting to evolve such legislation as may be necessary to cope, so far as we can legislatively, with the operations of the Communist Party on American soil. With that explanation, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now be ordered and directed to answer the principal outstanding question, namely: Are you now a member of the Communist Party? Mr. WILLIS. Yes; I order you to answer the question, sir, because you have not invoked-you have only invoked the first amendment of the Constitution. You have a lawyer, and a right to act on his advice. if you want to. But as chairman, I will tell you that in our opinion your position at this time is not justified and I order you to answer the question. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated, and I also respectfully refuse to answer that ques tion on the constitutional grounds that I cannot be forced to bear witness against myself. Mr. ARENS. Do you honestly apprehend, young man, that if you told this committee whether or not you are presently a member of the Communist Party, you would be giving information that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding? I advise you that if you honestly apprehend that you would be giving information that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding, you have a right, under the Constitution, to invoke the provision of the fifth amendment against self-incrimination. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. As the chairman knows, the purpose of the amendment to the Constitution to which I refer was created to safeguard both the innocent and the guilty. There is no inference in that amendment as to the position of the person who invokes it. I respectfully refuse to answer that question on the grounds previously stated. (A disturbance in the hearing room.) Mr. ARENS. Have you in the course of the last 12 months used an alias? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated. Mr. ARENS. Just one final question: Do you, sir, presently have information, current information, respecting the operation of the Communist Party in northern California! (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. WACHTER. I decline on the same grounds. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff interrogation of this witness. Mr. WILLIS. You are excused. The committee will stand in recess until one-thirty. (Member of the subcommittee present at time of recess: Representatives Willis and Johansen.) (Whereupon, at 12 noon the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at :30 p.m. the same day.) AFTERNOON SESSION-THURSDAY, MAY 12, 1960 (The subcommittee reconvened at 1:30 p.m., Representative Edwin E. Willis, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.) Mr. WILLIS. The subcommittee will please come to order. (Members of the subcommittee present at time of reconvening: Repesentatives Willis and Johansen.) Mr. WILLIS. Call your next witness. Mr. ARENS. Barbara Hartle, please resume the witness stand. TESTIMONY OF BARBARA HARTLE Resumed (A disturbance and demonstration in the hearing room.) Mr. WILLIS. We are now having our hearing broken up disturbed. ask the marshal to eject from the room those people who are leadg the crowd right in the midst of our hearing. The hearing will resume in an orderly fashion. I repeat, we are ere under the power of the United States Congress and ordered to here. We want to conduct these hearings in an orderly fashion. I think everyone with a sense of fairness and decency will say that these hearings have been conducted in a dignified fashion. (Disturbance.) The only reason, the only earthly reason why these doors aren't open is this: In no courtroom in America are people allowed on the side aisles unless they are orderly. In no picture show or other public function are people allowed in the side aisles without being orderly. That is the only reason why this thing has been brought about. We were very patient this morning. We shall continue to be patient, but firm and decisive. Now, this thing was brought about by disorderly conduct this morning. A lot of noise was going on. I announced that one more public display would result in the clearing of the aisles. That was accomplished over the noon recess. Mr. Counsel, please call your next witness. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that you announce to the police officers that they are under a mandate from this subcommittee to cause the removal from this room of any person who causes a disturbance in the course of the proceedings which will now begin. Mr. WILLIS. Yes. I assume that is what I have just done. Mr. ARENS. Mrs. Hartle, you were sworn this morning; is that correct? Mrs. HARTLE. Yes. Mr. ARENS. Would you get a little closer to the microphone so we may proceed with our interrogation? Mrs. HARTLE. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. You have before you at the present time the additional documents which were identified and incorporated in this record; is that correct? Mrs. HARTLE. Yes. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly proceed at your own pace to give your descriptive interpretation of those documents, at least the principal documents, and the significance of them from the standpoint of the operation on American soil of the Communist conspiratorial apparatus? Mrs. HARTLE. In the report by Gus Hall to the 17th National Convention, Gus Hall makes a very strong call for mobilization of a peace movement, and in it he exhorts the Communist Party that peace is the most important issue before the Communist Party. (See Committee Exhibit No. 1, App. p. 2205.) This is based on the fact that the Communist Party wants to take advantage of the peaceful coexistence with the Soviet Union and wants to undermine the United States economically and politically and take power and lead it into the Communist camp. Mr. ARENS. If I may interrupt, you are giving an interpretation to the Communist documents, based upon your background and training in the dialectics of communism and in Communist use of words, Communist semantics; is that correct? Mrs. HARTLE. Yes; that is correct. Mr. HARTLE. I can give a comparison of this peace movement with another peace movement in the late 1930's-the American Peace Mebilization, through which the Communist Party, when I was active in |