Mrs. GREEN. I have several questions but I will wait until you are finished.

Mr. CABELL. Don't hesitate or you will lose your place.

Mrs. GREEN. I am sorry.

PERCENTAGE OF SALARY INCREASE

Are you recommending a seven-percent across the board?
Commissioner WASHINGTON. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. For all policies?

Mr. EHRLICH. It is an average.

Mrs. GREEN. An average, or across the board?
Commissioner WASHINGTON. Average.

Mrs. GREEN. What is the increase that you would be recommending?
Mr. EHRLICH. I am not sure I understand the question.

Mrs. GREEN. I asked, is this across the board-an across-the-board increase and the answer was no, that it was the average.

Mr. EHRLICH. The average over the entire population assigned to the schools. When you have an average increase, there are some that get a seven-percent increase and some that get slightly more, but it averages out to seven percent.

Mrs. GREEN. You have a chart; where does the increase occur to bring up the average? Do you have that chart?

Mr. EHRLICH. I don't have that information here.

Mrs. GREEN. It seems, Mr. Chairman, if we are going to come up with-this Committee is going to come up with a salary schedule, it seems to me that there ought to be a very, very thorough job done on this. Everybody else says that the Committee is looking at this, and nobody else looks at it.

If we can't do a very thorough job, we better hadn't do it at all. There is just a general lack of information in the testimony on this bill. Mr. CABELL. Will the lady yield for a moment?

Mrs. GREEN. Yes.

Mr. CABELL. I hope that I do understand that you want a chart showing the individual positions and what the amount of increase would be?

Mrs. GREEN. Indeed, I am not satisfied as it is now.
Mr. CABELL. I think that is highly appropriate.

SALARY DIFFERENTIAL FOR ELEMENTARY AND HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS

Mrs. GREEN. I notice in the bill, Mr. Mayor, that on page five, what you, in effect, are doing is to-I don't know whether it is for the first time or not-a dual salary schedule that teachers' groups all over the country have rejected for a period of years, and I know when I first started teaching, they paid primary teachers the least, and this was on the theory that they were the least important.

And then the eighth grade teachers, they were paid the next subsequently, the curve rises more rapidly, with ninth grade teachers being paid more, high school teachers even more, and so on. Most educators say this is not good, but on page five, you have language to the effect, that no teacher in a high school will be appointed to probation, or appointed to a permanent status, unless that individual has a Master's Degree.

Are you actually saying that the elementary teacher and the teacher in the junior high are not so important, since we will not require a Master's Degree of them. That stipulation has to be closely tied to the salary you are paying. You must be paying the top grade people who must have the Master's Degree the highest salary. Is that the intent, that you stipulate that elementary and junior high teachers are the least important in the teaching hierarchy?

Commissioner WASHINGTON. That is an existing provision of law. Mrs. GREEN. What is the purpose of this on page five?

Mr. EHRLICH. We reviewed certain positions that are no longer on the salary schedule and they were obsolete, the provision with obsolete, the technical amendments. The actual amendment the requirement for Master's Degrees for teaching in the high schools is longstanding.

Mrs. GREEN. This is my first more intensive involvement in the salary arrangements for the D.C. teachers and I must admit great ignorance.

At the present time, then you have this degree requirement for the high school teachers; is that correct?

Mr. EHRLICH. Yes, ma'am.

Mrs. GREEN. Can you justify that selectivity on an educational basis? Can you justify moving in that direction, when in my opinion, you should be moving in the oppositive direction.

Mr. EHRLICH. May I defer that to the School Administration? Mr. SHORTER. Historically, because of the emphasis and concentration on high school, there has been a requirement for a Master's Degree at that level. I do believe this will be studied and recommendations made by the Board of Education as to whether this provision should be removed.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that before we make final determinations and, though I know we are required to act, I am not partial to the Congress being involved in this sort of matter-it is our responsibility to thoroughly examine this salary structure.

Mr. SHORTER. High school teachers have been required to have a Master's Degree before they could obtain a probationary appointment as a teacher.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you have with you the necessary data on the number of teachers in the District of Columbia system now having masters degrees?

Mr. SHORTER. We will supply that for the record.

Mrs. GREEN. You do not have that with you today?
Mr. SHORTER. I don't.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Chairman, having this information will, of course, make a great deal of difference. If the big majority of them have Master's Degrees, this will make a difference in the relative pay structure. In Oregon you can't get a teacher's position for the first grade or high school unless you have five years of education, the equivalency of a Master's Degree.

Commissioner WASHINGTON. Some of this material can be expected in the terms of their analysis, but the way we have done it is that I submit the overall policy of the bill, and we are relying upon the schools to present the detailed philosophy. We think that is proper.

FRINGE BENEFITS

Mrs. GREEN. What about the fringe benefits in the bill. What fringe benefits do the teachers have, and what is the dollar equivalency of those fringe benefits?

Mr. EHRLICH. The teachers in the District have health benefits, health insurance benefits, life insurance benefits, retirement benefits, workmen's compensation benefits. They have the same benefits as any other employee of the District.

Mrs. GREEN. No more; no less?

Commissioner WASHINGTON. There is a provision in this billMr. EHRLICH. Actually they have sick leave, something that others-accumulative leave-something that others do not have, a provision known as Sabbatical leave, where they can leave their jobs for a year at a time for educational purposes and receive half their pay while they are gone.

(The information subsequently submitted follows:)

Percentage of fringe benefits by category TSA-employees

Mrs. GREEN. Do you require so many years of service prior to a sabbatical?

Mr. EHRLICH. You must have six years of continuous service before you are eligible for Sabbatical leave. One of the amendments that is being proposed in this legislation is that school officers could go on Sabbatical leave and they could receive half of their salary, as well as teachers do at the present time.

At the present time, the teachers, while they are on Sabbatical leave, receive half their pay, and the school officer would get the greater half of his salary, rather than the lesser half of his salary, or half of the maximum salary of a teacher. So, we are proposing that Congress amend that provision to permit a school officer who is filling the requirements be able to have Sabbatical leave and be able to receive half his salary.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you have a number of excessive teachers?

Mr. EHRLICH. I also wanted to mention that the teachers' retirement system is a separate system from the Civil Service requirement that covers most other District employees. Most of the benefits are similar, however.

Mrs. GREEN. May I request-that whoever is responsible furnish this Committee with a detailed statement on fringe benefits and their dollar value, and also a comparison with the same salary and benefits in nearby districts and with other districts of comparable size? Mr. EHRLICH. Yes, ma'am.

Mr. CABELL. That has been requested, and that will be so requested and I would like that to be done as expeditiously as possible. Mrs. GREEN. If they want a salary increase.

Mr. CABELL. If we don't have that in hand, it is going to be very difficult to reach any conclusion as to what the final amount of increase should be.

Commissioner WASHINGTON. Those matters requested, requested of the Board. I would not only like to request the Chairman to assign someone within 24 or 48 hours, that that material ought to be available to you.

82-531 0-72-7

SUBSTITUTE TEACHERS

Mrs. GREEN. Does anyone here know the number of substitute teachers compared to those that have permanent status, teachers regularly appointed?

Mr. SHORTER. We have three categories: permanent, probation, and the temporary, and I think, Mrs. Green, you are alluding to the temporary. We can

Mrs. GREEN. How do you define temporary?

Mr. SHORTER (continuing). Temporary, temporary teachers, are teachers who either have not been certified or have not met the licensing requirement, or teachers who are personnel placed in a position because a person is on leave-maternity leave or Sabbatical leave.

Mrs. GREEN. When I reviewed the salary situation a couple of years ago, I was told that it was apparently a Board policy to hire a large number of substitutes because in that manner you could keep the salaries down. Is that still Board of Education policy? You obviously pay substitutes less?

Mr. SHORTER. Temporary teachers can be hired up to the sixth step of the salary scale. There has been no policy to hire temporary teachers to keep the salary scale down.

Mrs. GREEN. What do you mean by "they can go up to the sixth step"?

Mr. SHORTER. We have 15 steps on a salary scale, from 1 to 15. Temporary teachers can go up to the sixth step and then they are halted there. There has been no policy to hire temporary teachers to maintain a lower level budget. If they are authorized the positions and the person meets the licensing requirements, they become probationary. And they become a permanent person after a year's satisfactory pro

bation.

Mrs. GREEN. I am not sure your definition is the same as the one with which I am familiar. Traditionally, they define the substitute teacher as one who is hired on a temporary basis.

Let me give you a specific instance. Mr. Mayor, this may require your attention, along with the school people.

Commissioner WASHINGTON. Other than perhaps the school people? Mrs. GREEN. This may require other than just the attention of education officials; this is a general policy decision.

Let me refer to a particular school-connected with an air base where people were assigned to Washington. A group came to me in December, after this school had been in session two months, and the mother of a fourth grade youngster said that her child had had seven substitute teachers and not a single permanent teacher assigned to the fourth grade class.

SKELLY WRIGHT DECISIONS

With further probing, it was apparent that this condition was a byproduct of the Skelley Wright decision. The school was required to maintain a particular balance in teaching staff. There were teachers who were qualified to be hired on a permanent basis in the schools of the District of Columbia, but in compliance with court decree they could not be assigned because black persons were required to achieve balance. There were no black persons on the list at that time. There