ment of the reaction of materials-this is a part of the mission of the facility at least-to the vast neutron environment. Where would the role of the Department of Energy and the role of the Bureau of Standards, which would need to set the standards at some point for the characteristics of materials under different environments, overlap, and where would they be clearly separated? That's a question we have difficulty understanding, and I'm not asking you to illuminate the answer to us completely, but it's illustrative, I think, of the reasons why the Bureau may have suffered some decrease in support, because some people may have perceived that the basic responsibility for supporting certain kinds of works would have been in other agencies. We need to be fairly clear as to how we draw these agency lines. Would you care to comment on that? Dr. BAKER. Thank you, sir. I believe your perception of the diversion of support in these areas is keen. But you bring us right to the point the chairman made in our discussion about the coherence and focus of science and engineering. We in the community of science and engineering believe that this boundary, which you cite as being necessary to understand, is rather structured on the question of fundamental or general qualities of the units being probed. In energy, as Gertrude Stein would have said, an erg is an erg is an erg. And it holds, regardless of whether the ERDA or its successor, the DOE, has been measuring the outputs for reactors, fossil fuel combustion, or solar conversion. There are specific conditions for determining energy outputs and efficiencies for different circumstances, but underlying it all must be the basic units of measurement and characterization for which we believe the Bureau of Standards has the central and prime responsibility. This is illustrated dramatically in the case of materials, a field which a year or so ago the Academy asked Professor Cohen of MIT and me to evaluate. We have concluded that materials science and engineering is one of the most valuable frontiers for the Nation. It will contribute to our future growth and economy. However, in this field we find that it is essential to have characteristic values for the modulus, stiffness, strength, and tenacity of a whole range of matter. It includes glass, a subject on which Mr. Peck is expert. It includes metals and alloys and also organic materials-fibers, ranging all the way in interest from agriculture to petrochemicals. Industry will have a special set of measurements for each of these substances. Government, which deals with these materials will have a special set of measurements. But we believe it's absolutely necessary to have a fundamental basis of characterization of the tenacity, modulus, oxidation resistance, heat capacity, et cetera, for the basic form of matter. Mr. BROWN. You made reference in your statement to one area which has been of particular concern to me and to other members of this committee, and that was the problems arising out of environmental pollution, and the need to measure extremely small amounts of a wide variety of substances, frequently new substances. Dr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Mr. BROWN. Which may occur in various aspects of the environment. Again, this raises the same sort of a question: Where is the role of the Bureau of Standards and where is the role of the mission agency which is supposed to do the regulation of this thing and, to some degree, the research and development necessary in order to regulate it? Obviously, there would be new demands upon the Bureau of Standards for developing the various standard devices that would be necessary in order to analyze standard devices that would be necessary in order to analyze these problems. But how much, how far, do we need to bring the Bureau of Standards into the field of environmental measurement and regulation, I think is the question that we might have there. Dr. BAKER. You have singled out an extremely interesting arena, sir. The theme that we've been developing is illustrated very clearly there. We are very concerned about the influence of pollutants on the stratosphere and the ionosphere and the influence of fluorocarbons and other halogen-bearing materials on the ozone layer. The EPA, various health agencies, and many other technical and operational groups that you oversee have the responsibility for determing whether ozone-layer perturbations will expose the Nation and the world to the dangers of ultraviolet radiation. They are also responsible for determining whether we are disturbing weather patterns and environmental stability by the emission of large and what is becoming increasingly larger amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Incidentally, various laboratories, my own included, are discovering new ways of detecting the effects of pollutants. For example, C. Kumar Patel's spin-flip Raman laser will determine quanties of molecules of one part in a billion in the ionosphere's ozone layer. Because this is far beyond what has been possible, this laser is going to provide an opportunity for making new judgements about ozone-layer perturbations. But first there has to be worked out some common understanding of results among all concerned. The point I am making is that the missions of these agencies-the efforts to correlate human health with environmental composition, and, in turn, to correlate that factor with auto emissions (all matters about which Congress has been deeply concerned)-are in a state of great uncertainty. The fundamental definitions of molecules, atoms, and ions, which are necessary in making these correlations, are not yet adequate. The Bureau of Standards-there's where your boundary comes in again—with its mass spectrometry and spectroscopy can find out, for example, how much fluorine there is in a given zone of this planet's envelope and how much and which nitrogen oxides are present in our auto-emission environment. In legislation and in discussions of auto emissions, NOx is specified because nobody knows exactly what state of oxidation the nitrogen is occupying. As a member of the National Cancer Advisory Board, I can report to you that our frustration is not knowing the quantities of the contents of the atmosphere and their correlation with human neoplasms and malignancy is very intense. Only when an agency such as the National Bureau of Standards is able to make statistically significant measurements of these quantities over urban, metropolitan, and open areas are we going to know what the correlations with human health Mr. BROWN. I can assure you, Dr. Baker, that there are many Members of Congress who would like to have NBS answer these questions, the ones that you have just posed, but we are not always sure that NBS is the place to lay this heavy burden on, and obviously, under the present circumstances, it would be difficult for them to undertake some of these things. I have no further questions. Mr. THORNTON. Thank you very much, Mr. Brown. What do you think about whether NBS should have a role of fostering technical innovations? Dr. BAKER. Mr. Chairman, I have much less knowledge of what might happen in that area than I do in the fields in which the Bureau is presently active. However, I should immediately add that, of course, the Bureau indirectly fosters innovation by measurement and characterization techniques and by making it possible for industry to use with confidence new materials and methods that it can reproduce and control. By recent efforts to improve the production of software, which manufacturing greatly needs, the Bureau is fostering innovation by encouraging efficient and ingenious production of computer programs. That part, I think, is clear. I think the other part to which you refer is related to the suggestions for reorganization, which the Assistant Secretary, Director, and others have made. We will certainly observe these plans with keen interest. The national community of science and technology, particularly that segment in industry is, of course, concerned about the ability to apply the innovation we have already. Innovation is inhibited, not always by a lack of invention, but sometimes by a lack of environment. If innovation operates in a vacuum, it doesn't have the financial backing, the regulation, wisdom, and other elements that are necessary for it to flourish. So we may be more concerned about that at the moment. Mr. THORNTON. Which gets us into a very difficult area, of the coordination and mutual support of governmental research programs and programs such as those carried out by the Bureau with the private sector, and into some kind of analysis of just what Government can do to encourage industry to be innovative. This is a rather broad area, and I am sure that there are many things that Government can do, among them, as you just suggested, being careful not to inhibit the dissemination of innovative ideas. Dr. BAKER. Yes, sir. One of these is to see that the efforts of the Patent Office and the Bureau of Standards are combined to offer the possibility of one of the best stimuli innovation can have. On the one hand, the Patent Office recognizes the proprietorship, ingenuity, and inventiveness of industry. On the other hand, the Bureau of Standards can provide authenticity of effects. Its measurements are known to be right; its estimates of the quality of matter and of its behavior are known to be right. That's what is necessary to have a patent that's viable. So that combination of the Bureau of Standards and the Patent Office is pretty powerful. On the other hand, we worry a great deal about your other comments on not having undue inhibitions to innovation. The cooperation that the Bureau and the Department of Commerce has had with industry has been admired around the world. We would be deeply concerned to see it diminish. For example, we have heard rumblings from the Senate about statutes for standardization that would make the role of the Bureau mandatory. This would be a complete revolution of the voluntary standardization role that has been fostered in this country up to now. We think something like that is a major concern. Mr. Thornton. I want to express my appreciation to you for bringing our attention to bear upon that problem. Do you have any questions? Mr. KRAMER. No. Thank you. Mr. THORNTON. Woud you agree to respond to such questions in writing as may be addressed to you? Dr. BAKER. I would be happy to do so, Mr. Chairman. Mr. THORTON. I want to thank you for your excellent testimony. We appreciate your attendance today, as we do of each of our witnesses, and we will adjourn these hearings with the understanding that we will pursue the subject matter further and perhaps have additional hearings or inquiries for the record for each of the witnesses. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 10:52 a.m., the subcommittee adjourned.] ROBERT A. ROE, N.J. MIKE MC CORMACK, WASH. GEORGE E. BROWN, JR., CALIF. DALE MILFORD, TEX. RAY THORNTON, ARK. JAMES H. SCHEVER, N.Y. RICHARD LOTTINGER, N.Y. TOM HARKIN, IOWA JIM LLOYD, CALIF. ROBERT (BOB) KRUEGER, TEX. JAMES J. BLANCHARD, MICH. STEPHEN L. NEAL, N.C. THOMAS J. DOWNEY, N.V. DOUG WALGREN, PA. RONNIE G. FLIPPO, ALA. DAN OLICKMAN, KANS. BOB GAMMAGE, TEX. ANTHONY BEILENSON, CALIF. ALBERT GORE, JR., TENN. WES WATKINS, OKLA ROBERT A. YOUNG, MO. JOHN W. WYDLER, N.Y. LARRY WINN, JR., KANS. LOUIS FREY, JR., FLA. BARRY M. GOLDWATER, JR., CALIP. CHARLES A. MOSHER HAROLD A. GOULD PHILIP B. YEAGER FRANK R. HAMMILL, JR. JAMES E. WILSON WILLIAM G. WELLS, JR. RALPK N. READ ROBERT C. KETCHAM JOHN P. ANDELIN, JR. JAMES W. SPENSLEY REGINA A. DAVIS MINORITY STAFF DIRECTORI Mr. Charles Peck Chairman, NBS Visiting Committee Group Vice President, Building Materials Group Toledo, Ohio 43604 Dear Mr. Peck: Thank you again for appearing as a witness at the Subcommittee's oversight hearing on the National Bureau of Standards last week. I have reviewed the transcript of the hearing and would like to ask you to provide some material for the hearings record and to respond to the questions written below. Your answers will be very useful to the Subcommittee. Once more, thank you and best wishes. Sincerely, Thomas Kramer Science Consultant Material for the Record The Visiting Committee's September 15 report to the Secretary of Any material provided to the Visiting Committee by NBS for the Any material provided recently to the Visiting Committee by the |