to feel most acutely the state of degradation in which it was attempted to keep them. The system of excluding Catholics from parliament, was contrary to all the principles which had been laid down on both sides the discussions on parliamentary reform, that no great body should be with out its representatives in parliament. The refusal of the barons to agree to any innovation in the constitution, had been alluded to as an example to modern parliaments. But nolumus leges Angliæ mutari' was uttered by men in the full enjoyment of all the privileges of the constitution, to secure to themselves their rights, not to exclude those who were debarred from those privileges from participating in them. The hon. gentleman proceeded to remark, that a circumstance in favour of the claims of the Catholics was, that the influence of the priests on the higher orders of that body had diminished. There was an an, nual excommunication issued against all Protestants, but notwithstanding this fulmination, a Catholic nobleman (it was well known,) had raised a body of volunteers to defend this excommunicated country. When objections were made to this corps being headed by his son, with a truly British spirit he said, that nothing could absolve him from his duty of defending his country, and that his son should serve in the ranks of this body which he was not permitted to command. Dr. Duigenan rose and read the Resolution on the subject of Catholic emancipation, which proposed security to the Protestant religion; but the present measure, he said, contained no security whatever. It was the same scheme as that of James the 2d, and therefore the necessary consequence of passing this Bill would be, that that king and his family were driven unjustly from the throne. The Roman Catholic religion was unchangeable: their enmity to the Protestant establishment was the same that it ever was; and the only question to be considered was, whether you would bestow civil privileges and political power on your eternal and inveterate foe. The doctrines laid down in their decrees and councils were really dreadful. To prove this, the right hon. gentleman went into numerous documents, and read copiously from their oaths, and the decisions of various councils unrepealed, which tended to shew their entire dependence upon the Pope, and that they were not bound to keep faith with heretics. The spiritual supremacy of the Roman see, he argued, brought with it temporal power. There were, he well knew, persons in that House who did not like to hear the true Catholic doctrines. The council of Constance had decreed that no oath was binding which was contrary to the interest of the church. Any oath to a Protestant king was consequently void. No one would be hardy enough to assert, that spiritual power did not bring along with it temporal power. But the Catholic religion was at this moment in a peculiar situation. It was no longer the Roman Catholic religion, but the Parisian Catholic religion, and Buonaparté, our mortal enemy, would, if this measure were consented to, have the power of carrying into effect all his villainous designs against this country, by means of a vassal pope. He next noticed the petitions; and stated, that the signatures to those from Protestants in Ireland, in favour of concession, amounted to only 4,000, while those against it were above 100,000 most respectable names. This circumstance, with the petitions from England, signed by more than 300,000 persons, evidently shewed the feelings of the people on the subject. One half of the petitions on the table were directed against all concession to the Catholics. [Cries of No! no! no!] "Yes, yes, yes, (said the right hon. doctor) I can prove my words." He then proceeded to descant on the formal security talked of for the established church; but contended, that from the nature of the Catholic religion, and their professed disregard of all faith with heretics, no such security could be obtained. They themselves refused to give it. They had repeatedly declared, that they would receive emancipation as no partial boon, nor would they submit to any conditions whatever, How, then, could we conciliate these people? If a man was to come into your house, and threaten to destroy you with fire and sword, could you be expected to receive him with the same complaisance as your dearest friend? Let gentlemen look to the statutes they were called on to repeal. He asserted the measure proposed to be a fundamental overthrow of the constitution, doing away with the Test and Corporation Acts, and violating the coronation oath, as well as the acts of Union between England and Scotland, and Great Britain and Ireland. This Bill would subvert the constitution to its very foundation. Would any man say, that the crown could be absolved from its oath? His present Majesty thought otherwise, opinions on a former night, now rose to and every reasonable and conscientious speak solely to the motion of the right hon. man would think otherwise. An act of gentleman. The committee was reduced parliament, indeed, was imperious, nothing to a difficulty of great extremity. They could oppose it, but the consent of the were, in fact, called upon to grant almost crown was necessary to an act of parlia- every thing, or to grant nothing to the ment. The resolution of the two Houses claims of the Catholics. Yet he was free was nothing of itself it possessed no to say, that while much might be granted, power against the conscience of the King. there was also something to be withheld. It had been said, that the oath had al- He could not but consider the question in ready been broken, but it was not in essen- every possible point of view but as one tials; the alterations which had been made which appeared to him a measure of examounted to no breach of that oath; but pedience, and in reality a measure of nethe measures now proposed would amount cessity. Gentlemen, he was sure, must to a revolution; the repeal of the Corpora- feel, that if they were to stop where they tion and Test Acts would overturn the au- were, they had either gone too far, or not thority of both church and state. The far enough. It would be a subject of first article of the new constitution of great regret, if, after the resolution of last Spain was, that the Roman Catholic should parliament, and the adoption of that pledge be the established religion of the co. try, by that House, the matter should be ter and that no other should be tolerated. minated abruptly, without their being Here was Catholic liberality. Though we able, after all this discussion, to collect were fighting their battles for them, and any practical result. For these reasons he wasting our blood and treasure in supportwas in favour of the motion. At the same ing them against the tyrant of Europe, time he had no scruple in stating his regret they would not even tolerate us as Pro- that the right hon. mover had not opened testants. He also noticed a suggestion his views to a larger extent than he had thrown out on a former debate, that even done, and given him some prospect of if the one hundred Irish members were agreeing with him hereafter. But if the Catholics, there would be no danger in right hon. gentleman had not come up to the fact. That they would be so, he his outline, he had called for no pledge thought very probable, and appealed to which would prevent any one from enthe House for the dangers that must ensue grafting any amendment thought neces from such a body, acting together with one sary and proper on the ulterior measure, end in view. The rudder was small, but it and the more he heard this question disguided the ship; and no minister could with cussed, the more conscientiously was be stand such a combination as this might be, convinced, not only of its expediency, but of men elected, not by the property, but of its actual necessity. The motion be by the beggary of Ireland, and under the fore them only acknowledged the principle, influence of their Catholic priests. A hun- but bound them to no detail, and, in condred Catholics in that House would go- curring with these propositions he consi vern parliament. Suppose these hun- dered himself as only doing that to which dred members made a bargain with the he stood pledged by the opinions he had minister to vote with him on every occa- formerly declared. It had been stated by sion, must they not have every thing their a right hon. gentleman (the Speaker) that own way?-Elections in Ireland, he re- this resolution embraced a general sweep peated, were not made by the property, of repealing all the statutes of restrictions, but by the beggary of the country, and without providing any securities. If he three fourths of the present members were thought so, he would vote against it; but returned by the direction of Popish as it must be accompanied in its future priests. They would, if this bill passed, progress with modifications and restriccome over like a swarm of bees, and he tions, he was not anxious to look out for would be a great minister who could with- points of difference in its earliest stages, stand them. First, they would have all and would therefore support it in principle, Ireland to themselves; it could not be till of necessity they came to points, where doubted whether they would continue long diversity of opinion prevailed. The noble united with this country, when the disso-lord then referred to the proposition made lution of the Union was the first object in by sir J. C. Hippisley, which he consiall their declarations. dered to be objectionable, as it would bring a code of laws they all looked on with re Lord Castlereagh having stated his general desire. The measure, if perfected, would be a boon to one country, and a blessing to the other; and he should do his humble endeavours to bring it to that state. If it should so happen that measures should be attempted to be connected with it which he considered of a dangerous nature to the constitution, rather than give his sanction to them, he would imitate the noble lord and withdraw his support; though he did not consider this event as at all probable, but only reserved to himself the right, if in the future discussion any insuperable obstacle should arise, to withdraw from the course that he had hitherto pursued, satisfied that things should remain in their existing state, rather than that his sanction should be given to any thing dangerous to the establishments of the country. gret, into an invidious point of view; it would also lead to the examination of doctors Milner, O'Connor, &c. and afford them a reasonable prospect of a religious controversy up stairs. The only point on which it could be useful would be inquiring into, and determining the state of the influence allowed to the Roman see in other countries of Europe, Catholic as well as Protestant; but this subject was already completely elucidated by the hon. baronet's pamphlets upon it. He did not believe there was any reasonable man in the country who was not persuaded that the see of Rome had very properly been a constant subject of jealousy in every court of Europe. We had lost sight of that jealousy and it was to be regretted, that in this country, except the horrible and obsolete Acts of Elizabeth, there was no steady system which operated as a guard against that power. When we were on the point of removing the last remains of the penal laws, which we looked back to with regret and horror, it was proper that some regulations should be enforced for the purpose of securing the church and state from all attempts to which they might be exposed. Our law had been much neglected on this head, and must be revised in whatever decision the legislature came to on the important question now agitating. The noble lord concluded by saying, he should give his cordial vote for the Resolution, which appeared to leave every gentleman's judgment unshackled, and to be a fair and candid proposal in the present stage of the business. He did not, however, hold himself precluded in any future stage from opposing the Bill, if it should become his painful duty so to do. Mr. Canning, like the noble lord, would confine himself to the question immediately before the House, and avoid the temptation to wander into the general discussion which had already appeared so wearisome. He thought the speech of the noble lord, his declaration of support and limitation of the contingency on which his opposition might afterwards be determined, were stated with perfect candour. The noble lord had, in very strong terms, held forth the advantage which such a measure would, if carried, produce to the country. If the noble lord had gone a little further and promised to lend his own powerful aid to the measure, if it might turn out what in his opinion it ought to be, it would have been as much as the warmest friends of the Catholics could The discussion of that night had added much to his hopes and his expectations. He knew not what effect might have been produced on the minds of others; but with him it had done more to strengthen his hopes, and do away his apprehensions, than any former debate, when so much more had been conceded on all sides than had ever been conceded before, so as to disarm irritation if it did not overcome objection. In debates on this question, and on other questions, it had been usual for the one party to charge the other with pursuing wild and unattainable objects. But to-night a singular objection was made, that all the objectionable parts of the measure had been done away. It was certainly a new objection that the measure had lost all its convenient extravagance. This absence of fault had been imputed to the plan as culpable, though he could not but think it highly fortunate. There was, however, one right hon. gentleman who was still consistent (Dr. DĎuigenan) one who never flinched from his duty, and who now remained in a dignified and respectable solitude, like a mighty pillar, standing erect amidst the ruins from which every other person had fled. To night, with the exception of the voice of that right hon. and learned gent., which those who formerly concurred with him in opinion seemed anxious to drown, lest it might reproach them with its abandonment, with that sole exception there was a complete dereliction of any attempt to assert the old arguments that had been urged on the subject. Not one individual rose up in support of the existing system. The charge on the one side was that their ad The only most sanguine imagination. versaries ceased to be bigotted, and, on the other, that they ceased to be obstinate. Discussion on this question, therefore, had had the effect which temperate discussion ought always to have that of approximating parties. Extremes which seemed irreconcilable were now so nearly approached that the one side could almost hold out their hands and reach the held out hands of their antagonist. Those who seemed before to be at an immeasurable distance from each other, had by mutual compromise approached into view; and union and peace were placed within their grasp. Every one who spoke that night must feel himself bound not to let the subject go without proposing what he thought right. They might not succeed in accomplishing what all desired; but if they did not succeed in perfecting the system which the right hon. gentleman had in contemplation, they had at least the arguments respecting the danger of foreign influence, and the admission of one right hon. and distinguished member (the Speaker) that it could not remain as it was, but must become subject to legis-pass a measure though the House without lative interference. They had the admission that things must not remain as at present; they had the admission that the army must not remain as it was, but that the Catholics must be rendered eligible to promotion; they had had an admission that the bar could not remain as it was, but that the Catholics must be allowed to partake of the honours as well as the emoluments of that profession. They had the further admission, that the Catholics were so far advanced in light and knowledge, that even if nothing of all this should be now done, the question must at no distant period come under the consideration of parliament. They had the powerful admission of his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Wilberforce) who, for the first time this night, had taken a part in the debate, and whose opinion was the more valuable from its conscientiousness and the deliberation upon which it had been perhaps not fearlessly formed, that to Catholics the doors of that House should be opened. Was he not, therefore, entitled to say that the friends of Catholic concession had that night reaped the fruits of the long and frequent discussions which the subject had undergone; and that the question stood in a more favourable point of view than could have been anticipated a fortnight ago by the the imposition of sufficient guards by those who would be jealous of such a proceeding. It was rather hard that he should be accused of not bringing forward his restrictions first: this would be to begin by driving the broad end of the wedge. His plan was not without precedent; in 1793, the preamble set forth a general sweeping repeal, and then the restrictions fol. lowed. Such would be the case now: and, indeed, from the course of parlia. mentary tactics, he must say that it was necessary that conciliation should be expressed in the preamble; for if the restric tions were first voted, it might be feared that the conciliatory clauses would never follow. He thought it was wise not to detail the plan now, but rather leave it to the wisdom of the House to engraft such restrictions as might seem good and expedi ent. As to the measure of a select committee, he had no particular objection to it, but thought it ought not to be pressed in the present branch of the proceeding, as he could not consent to adopt it in lieu of the proposed resolution, to which he gave his hearty concurrence. The House then divided, Against it............ Majority 186 ..... 119 -67 APPENDIX TO THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES, VOL. XXIV. TABLES RESPECTING THE PLAN OF FINANCE PROPOSED TO PARLIAMENT IN MARCH 1813, BY THE RIGHT HON. NICHOLAS VANSITTART, CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER. OUTLINE OF THE PLAN. FROM the period of the complete introduction of the Funding System in the early part of the last century, to the close of the American War, the object of our measures of finance during war appeared to be only to provide for the immediate expences of the year, by borrowing such sums as were necessary for any extraordinary charge incurred, and by imposing such taxes as might meet the interest of the loan, leaving to the period of peace the consideration of any provision for the repayment of debt; and this being attempted at irregular periods and on no permanent system, was never carried into effectual execution; the total amount of debt redeemed between the Peace of Utrecht and the close of the American War being no more than 8,330,000%. The accumulated expences of the American war, and the depressed state of public credit and of the revenue at the close of that war, impressed on the vigorous mind of Mr. Pitt the necessity of adopting a more provident system, of which he laid the basis, with admirable judgment, in the Sinking Fund Acts of 1786 and 1792. At the commencement of the war of the French revolution, Mr. Pitt thought it sufficient, to meet the charge of military and naval expence by loans, accompanied by that provision for gradual redemption, which had been established by the Act of 1792. The increased expences of the war, and the prospect of its long continu(VOL. XXIV.)—Appendix. ance, induced him however, in 1797, to aim at the most efficacious system by which a long duration of war can be supported, that of equalizing the income with the expenditure of the country. For this purpose he proposed, in 1798, the establishment of a general Tax on Income; intended, with the aid of some other war taxes, to provide within the year, for a considerable part of the public expences, and also to repay within a few years after the conclusion of peace, all debt contracted beyond the amount of the Sinking Fund in each year. The plans adopted for increasing the national income upon the renewal of the war, by lord Sidmouth, and afterwards by lord Grenville and lord Henry Petty, in 1803, 4, and 6, were on a much larger scale; and there is every appearance that the income of the nation, might at this time have equalled or exceeded its expenditure, if the necessity of a large increase in our foreign expences had not arisen. The total amount of the public expen diture, exclusive of the Sinking Fund, was on an average of the years 1806 and 1807, about 61,600,000l. The income of 1807 (taking the Property Tax, according to its assessment, at about 11,400,000l.) was about 59,700,000. The net produce of the public income, on an average of the years 1809, 1810, and 1811, deducting the arrears of property tax paid in beyond the assessment of each year, was about 64,000,000l. which, with the addition of the taxes im(A) |