without what I firmly felt was contravening the policy of the Merchant Marine Act of '36.

The CHAIRMAN. The Merchant Marine Act of 1936 had definitely in mind, as I recall, the establishment of services to the principal ports of this country and where we could build up commerce as well as the establishment of a merchant marine for naval defense.

Admiral LAND. That is quite correct.

The CHAIRMAN. We thought that there was needed continuity and dependability of service between this country and foreign nations. In order to get that, we could not rely on other people coming in without restrictions getting .the cream off the surface and then abandoning the enterprise. That was done after the first World War. Admiral LAND. I think that very adequately and correctly expresses it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Mr. WELCH. Mr. Chairman, is this an analysis of the bill or a report from the Maritime Commission?

Admiral LAND. This is an analysis of the one-price portion of the bill, Mr. Welch, these nine pros and cons. What we have submitted to you up there is an analysis of the bill, cr a summary.

Mr. WELCH. I think the committee should have a definite report from the Maritime Commission.

Admiral LAND. We have submitted a definite report here, with the exception of this one point which I have just stated.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you referring now to a definite report here, on this bill, or to the former bill?

Admiral LAND. A definite report on this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. That is No. 9, which has been handed to the members. That is the report.

Mr. WELCH. I have not read it and none of the members have had an opportunity to read it.

The CHAIRMAN. They have not. It was delivered to me this morning by the Printing Office.

Mr. WELCH. It is my opinion that members of the committee should have an opportunity to read the report.

The CHAIRMAN. They will have ample opportunity, and the Maritime Commission witnesses will be recalled for examination.

Mr. WELCH. I was about to say, Mr. Chairman, that the members of the committee should have the opportunity to read the report and then have Admiral Land come again to the committee. We will be in a better position to discuss the bill with the admiral after reading the report of his Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. There will be no hesitancy in getting the Admiral present for such examination as you want to make.

Are there any further questions?

Mr. CHURCH. Mr. Chairman, you asked a question a while ago of Admiral Land. I would like to have that question read, and have the answer to it. I did not think the answer was very comprehensive. You referred to the bill as putting foreigners in competition with our people at a higher price.

The CHAIRMAN. I have stated that the admiral will be requested to return if, as, and when the members desire his return.

Mr. WEICHEL. Admiral, is it not a fact that there was some sort of agreement made with the State Department with the various Allied

Nations for the complete operation of all shipping for 6 months after the war?

Admiral LAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. WEICHEL. Then, if that is a fact, there is not this real, fast, urgent need for enacting this bill at this time. You would have 6 months as a sort of cooling-off period to make some determinations as to what you wanted to sell and what you are going to do with it. Admiral LAND. I do not think so at all, because that is what is known as the London agreement, and simply set up shipping pools. It has not any more to do with it than the present shipping pools. Those shipping pools are merely an expansion from U. K.-U. S. pools to United Nations pools, being specifically those United Nations who are willing to sign the agreement, and have to do with the operation of the war and the retention primarily of governmental rights to requisition and to hold those requisitionings. I do not think it has any bearing whatsoever on the legislation, because there will certainly need to be, and there is right now, a definite need for the shipping industry of the United States to know where we stand and where they stand with regard to our policy, and there is nothing in that argeement that would have any effect whatsoever on this bill.

Mr. WEICHEL. During that 6-month period you have definite information upon which to act. Now this is just a guessing contest of some kind or other, is it not?

Admiral LAND. Not at all. It is far from it. It is absolutely definite. The only guessing contest, if you want to be specific, is the question of what kind of restrictions you will have, if you attempt to put these restrictions on our domestic or our unsubsidized commerce and the foreign commerce. It can be done. It can be handled administratively, in my judgment not satisfactorily either to the administration or the operators. That is a possible solution, and that is the only problem that is in front of us, and that is something that we ought to settle as a nation. It has nothing to do whatsoever with the pools of the United Nations.

Mr. CANFIELD. In other words, there have been no conversations and certainly no agreements, with representatives of foreign nations concerning the post-war disposition of our ships?

Admiral LAND. No, sir; there have not.

Mr. BRADLEY. What about the agreement with the Norwegians and the Brazilians? Do we not have some State Department obliga-tions on those?

Admiral LAND. Those are, of course, before the committee. When I answered in the negative I would have to except those, which you gentlemen have had before you on a number of occasions and which are still extant, and have not been implemented. Those are minor details.

The CHAIRMAN. The latest information as to that is contained in Committee Document 109, which referred to some subsequent arrangements to be made by the British, and as to which I asked them to continue to advise us. I understand there is a letter on the way, but that it has been held up for the time being.

Mr. Buck. Does Admiral Land think anything Congress does will prevent foreign shipbuilding nations from going ahead full steam with their own shipbuilding program?

Admiral LAND. I very definitely do for the first 2 or 3 years after the war. I very definitely do not beyond that stage.

Mr. WELCH. They are going ahead at the present time. Is that not a fact, Admiral?

Admiral LAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. WELCH. Not only going ahead in their own interests, but Britain is building ships for neutrals.

The CHAIRMAN. That emphasizes the necessity for our taking action.

Admiral LAND. It certainly does, Judge. God knows I haven't any financial interest in this thing. My job is to see that we have a successful and progressive up-to-date American merchant marine.

The CHAIRMAN. That was the purpose of the 1936 act, to appoint an administration, because we found we could not leave it to these people to determine it themselves.

Admiral LAND. I think that was exactly the purpose, and I regret the disparagement and innuendo that has been thrown against that directly and indirectly, and any invidious comparisons in which the figures presented are not entirely accurate and the inferences to be drawn are not correct.

The CHIRMAN. Questions?

Mr. CHURCH. Admiral Land, our chairman asked you a question a while ago as to whether or not this bill, which is an amendment of the 1936 act, would not give preferences in the sale of ships to the foreigners, and your answer was "Yes." Now then, you seemed to answer that is the answer that I thought you gave that the operators can ride along with the 1936 act or without it. Your bill-and I understand you are back of this bill-purports to amend the '36 act. The CHAIRMAN. I beg the gentleman's pardon. Admiral LAND. You do not understand my answer.

I said the 1936 act permitted people to function under it or not to function under it according to their own sweet will.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Mr. CHURCH. That does not answer my question. You said there was a preference, under this bill, to sales to foreigners. That is right, is it not?

Admiral LAND. Yes, and I said that the last time I was up here. Mr. CHURCH. And that those preferences are given by this bill. Admiral LAND. As now drafted; yes.

Mr. CHURCH. As distinguished from the 1936 act?

Admiral LAND. Yes; no, not necessarily as distinguished from the 1936 act.

Mr. CHURCH. That is your interpretation.

Admiral LAND. No, it is not my interpretation at all. I answered the question "Yes," that there is that preference, and we say that we stand pat on the bill as submitted with that one exception.

Mr. CHURCH. Of course, we have not read your statement.

The CHAIRMAN. This is not an amendment of the 1936 act. It has no reference to the 1936 act.

Admiral LAND. I was in hopes that you would take that up.

The CHAIRMAN. It is an effort to carry out the policy of the 1936 act.

Admiral LAND. I would like to add one statement there, Judge, if I may be permitted, but just trusting to memory I will make it. I want it distinctly and definitely understood that so far as the Commission is concerned, and certainly so far as I am concerned, this is a

separate bill and has nothing to do with anything except war-built ships, not trying to establish a policy decades ahead for the whole merchant marine. It is war-built ships and surplus commodities.

The CHAIRMAN. And, according to this bill, an American citizen has every right to buy the ships under the bill, and a foreigner does not come in until offers of sale have been made.

Mr. WELCH. The bill not only involves 16 or 17 billion dollars of American money, but it has great bearing on the future of the American merchant marine.

Admiral Land, at the beginning of his statement, referred to the fact that the shipping interests are not acting with unity, they are divided on this matter. Again, some of us have in mind the future of the American merchant marine. Instead of the particular personal interests of those who own and operate our ships, we have that interest in mind.

The CHAIRMAN. Or who want to own and operate them, and they want to do the same thing they did after the last war.

Mr. WELCH. The American merchant marine is an institution in itself. Titles I and II of the Merchant Marine Act of 1936 definitely set out the purposes of the American merchant marine, and we should not enact any legislation that will interfere with the policy so enunciated.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, we are trying to carry out the policy if we just can do it here.

Mr. WELCH. We will know more about that, Mr. Chairman, after we read the report of the Maritime Commission with their analysis, and have Admiral Land back for further discussions.

Admiral LAND. I would like to repeat one thing so that our position may be entirely clear and there will not be any confusion. Except for incorrect draftsmanship on the bill as presented, the Maritime Commission stands behind it as presented, with the exception of this one-price fixture, which we present to the committee as being capable of being solved by two things: One, as I repeat, definite restrictions following the lines of the restrictions now given to the subsidized operator, applying them both to domestic and foreign; two, if they want no restrictions, let them pay the price; and I suggest and am not definitely committed to it that they pay a 20-percent price, both foreign and domestic, for the removal of those restrictions.

Now, I do not see anything that can be more simple. It may not be attractive, but it is perfectly simple. The restrictions are not so simple when you try to write them into law. They can be evaded, and those members of the committee that have followed the Merchant Marine Act know all about the evasions-the restriction being that you shall not compete with the American merchant marine. You have an answer. I am perfectly willing to come up here with a flat recommendation one way or the other, but it is somewhat controversial. Frankly, I would like a little advice from this committee as well as from the industry as to some compromise, because I do not know how you are ever going to solve this without compromise. The CHAIRMAN. We have to write something or confess we can not do it. I am tired of fooling with it.

Mr. CHURCH. Right there, so that this committee and the admiral and the industry may go forward from here without so much confusion, first, I want to ask the chairman-and there are many witnesses here,

so that they are even having to stand up-can we not have the next meeting where those vitally interested can have seats?

Second, will those people-I mean the representatives of the industry-be furnished with this report? They are entitled to it.

The CHAIRMAN. How many copies of No. 9 have been printed? The CLERK. Seven hundred and fifty.

The CHAIRMAN. Committee Print No. 9 came in yesterday evening, was delivered to us this morning, and so far as having seats is concerned, I had arranged for the caucus room. I can get it now, but I was advised, and I agreed with them, that it was more comfortable to be in this room than it would be in the caucus room. The acoustics are bad enough here, but they are better than in the caucus room.

Admiral LAND. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest to you and to the members of the committee that No. 2 is practically the same as No. 9, and that has been out for weeks and weeks and weeks, and at the request of various members of this committee we spent days and nights on the thing. So far as the explanation of the bill is concerned we sent this up after the last meeting at the request of Mr. Church, Mr. Weichel, and Mr. Herter.

Mr. CHURCH. What I am trying to do is to do just what you suggested a while ago.

Admiral LAND. Yes.

Mr. CHURCH. Either this committee must require witnesses from the industry to come in here at our invitation or, as you said, they have got to get together on their differences. I think you recognize that. You call it selfishness. I do not. You recognize that they have their problems. This committee finally has to compromise on their problems.

Admiral LAND. Right.

Mr. CHURCH. We are going to have to start with calling them as witnesses soon. That was my third question, Mr. Chairman. Certainly we have got to start calling witnesses from the industry.

The CHAIRMAN. I have a list of witnesses to be called. At the previous meeting it was determined that they wanted Admiral Land on first, and I had him here for that reason, because of the request of the members of this committee. I have a list of witnesses here. Mr. CHURCH. Has Mr. Roth seen this report No. 9?

Mr. ALMON E. ROTH (president, National Federation of American Shipping, Inc.). So far as I know, the industry did not know that report was in existence until this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. It was not in existence until this morning.

Mr. CHURCH. Then, Mr. Roth, if you appeared here next you might confuse the committee, not knowing what this report is.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will hear those who are present and want to be heard so far as it can up to 11:45, when we will adjourn for a meeting of the House, and the Chair is not going to continue the sessions.

Admiral LAND. In order that I may be down in the nethermost hell, I want to state before the committee that I have addressed my criticisms and remarks to the whole shipping industry, not to subsidized or unsubsidized, but the whole outfit. When I talk about selfishness I am talking about both sides, not one side. I am talking about the whole show, and I do not agree with Mr. Church that it is not selfish, because that is human and necessary and perfectly proper.