Mr. FORD. I consider it has been, sir, a real problem in the Department of State.

Mr. DODD. More than you think should exist?

Mr. FORD. More than I think should exist; yes.

Mr. DODD. Well, I think we are concerned about that. I know I am, and I think the other members of the committee are.

Mr. FORD. I am.

Mr. DODD. Everybody seems to duck around this thing, and I think it would help the Government of the United States and this committee and the Members of the Congress if we could get at the bottom of it.

If it is inordinate, how did it get started?

Why are there so many of these people there?

I would like to know the answer to that.

Mr. FORD. Sir, I have specialized in that field in the past, and I do not think that, of course, public session is the proper place

Mr. DODD. I don't know why not.

Mr. FORD. Well, I think

Mr. DODD. There is nothing secret about it.

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. DODD. It has been well publicized.

Mr. FORD. But, I mean, to give you the full picture

Mr. DODD. There is no secret about it at all.

Mr. FORD. No; there is no secret about it at all. There is absolutely nothing secret about it, but I do think some of the reasons back of the problem get into case history studies, and I just don't feel it could be, you know, expanded upon to the point that you would know the extent of the problem as I would discuss it with you personally.

Mr. DODD. Well, that is a great security question, isn't it?
Mr. FORD. It is a very serious security question.

are risks, and I have abundant evidence of it
Mr. DODD. Yes; I am very well aware of that.
Mr. FORD. And I am very concerned about it.

Moral deviates

Mr. DODD. I read somewhere that the figure of 1 percent of a given group is to be expected. I wondered if you had heard that also. Mr. FORD. I have heard that.

Mr. DODD. Well, then, we are about on the average here; is that right?

Mr. FORD. Just about, sir.

Mr. DODD. Well, then, it isn't an inordinate number, is it?

Mr. FORD. Well

Mr. DODD. Well, if it is average, it isn't inordinate. It can't be both.

Mr. FORD. Well, I

the

Mr. BROWNSON. If the gentleman will yield, that is 1 percent of

gross population unscreened.

Mr. DODD. Well, that is right.

Mr. BROWNSON. Using screening procedures we should be able to reduce that 1 percent appreciably.

Mr. DODD. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know-I think you know what is in my mind.

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes.

Mr. DODD. We have talked about it.

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes. If it isn't unusual, if we are faced with that, I think we ought to know that, too. If it is unusually large here, that is a great bother to me; but if you say it isn't, that is

Mr. FORD. Well, I am not saying it isn't, sir. I am saying I am not qualified to speak with reference to these matters, making comparisons. I would have to call in a psychiatrist or a medical man. I am not qualified to do it. I merely have the responsibility of investigating those situations.

Mr. DODD. Well, I understand that. I don't mean there is a responsibility on you, but

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Well, Mr. Chairman

Mr. BROWNSON. Yes, Mrs. St. George.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. DODD. Yes.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. If it is just average, as has been implied here, does that mean it is no longer a menace of any kind and should, therefore, be dismissed as a quaint, modern custom?

I don't think that is all it amounts to. I still think the danger is significant and I feel you do, too

Mr. FORD. I do; definitely.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Because it is a danger; and, therefore, if it is a danger, in a sensitive department, something has got to be done, even if it is only an average number.

Mr. FORD. That's right. I am saying I don't know.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. You don't know?

Mr. FORD. I am saying

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I mean, I don't think the fact it is average would appeal to me as a means of feeling it is not a danger.

Mr. DODD. Excuse me. I just want to say this to you: I don't think so either, but I think the impression has been created there was a peculiar situation in this Department. Of course, I understand it is a menace as a security measure, but there has been an opinion abroad, I think, that there may be more in this Department for some mysterious reason, and I think we should know if that is so. That is all I wanted to point out.

Mr. FORD. Yes. I just feel you have brought up one thing there that ought to be clarified. I do not know if it is unusually high in the Department of State as compared to other agencies or not. I do say this: By reason of our having a foreign service, where customs and morals, et cetera, in foreign countries may not be as high as our own, individuals are perhaps subjected to more temptations than they would be in the United States and might acquire this proclivity more so than they would in the United States.

Mr. BROWNSON. Of the 8,558 cases of applicants for the Department of State, positions in the Department of State, who were turned down as being unsatisfactory, do you have any idea of the percent of those who were turned down on homosexual grounds?

Mr. FORD. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. BROWNSON. You do not?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. BROWNSON. The focus of public opinion, I think, has been centered on the Department of State in regard to difficulties in screening homosexual personnel, partly because the public feels the Department of State has great security importance and partly because several cases have arisen there which have attracted attention, but isn't it a fact that, as far as you know, the Department of State is not peculiarly different from other parts of the Government in that respect? Mr. FORD. I have no knowledge of what other agencies do in that respect, sir.

Mr. BROWNSON. Don't you security officers have a local chapter of Security Officers, Inc., where you get together and discuss these things?

Mr. FORD. Well, we do know they have a problem, of course, but to know their statistics and how many-I don't have that.

Mr. BROWNSON. You ought to have a good trade association.
Mr. FORD. Well, we do, sir.

Mr. BROWNSON. Good.

I want to thank you very much, Mr. Ford, for your testimony and your cooperation with our staff in preliminary investigations, and we assure you that the information you have given us has been very helpful in assisting us to understand your problems. Our staff will call on you as we develop the record of the hearings for any additional information which we may require. In the meanwhile we certainly want to express our appreciation for the job you have done and the frankness with which you have discussed these issues.

Mr. FORD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BROWNSON. Now, the next witness is Mr. R. W. S. McLeod, Administrator of the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs of the Department of State.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MCLEOD. I do, sir.

Mr. BROWNSON. Will you please be seated, sir, and give your name and official title for the record.

TESTIMONY OF R. W. S. McLEOD, ADMINISTRATOR, BUREAU OF SECURITY, CONSULAR AFFAIRS AND PERSONNEL, DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Mr. MCLEOD. Scott McLeod, Administrator, Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, Department of State.

Mr. BROWNSON. Mr. McLeod, would you give us a brief history of your employment with the United States Government and your background for your present position?

Mr. MCLEOD. Yes, sir. I got out of college in 1937 and worked as a newspaper reporter until 1942, when I became a special agent of the FBI. I continued until December of 1949, when I was employed by Senator Bridges as his administrative assistant, and I held that position until March 3, last, when I came to this job.

Mr. BROWNSON. What is the responsibility and the jurisdiction of your Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, Mr. McLeod?

Mr. MCLEOD. Well, there isn't a nice, short answer to that I would like to give. The Bureau is created by the McCarran Act as the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, and when I came on the job it was agreed that is would embrace also personnel. Now, I haven't been there long enough to find out just what all the ramifications of the Bureau are; but briefly, as Mr. Ford has testified, there are these various offices under the Bureau-and I presume the committee is principally concerned with the Office of Security and the personnel function.

Mr. BROWNSON. Do you have a chart that you could supply for the committee for inclusion in the record, a chart of a functional breakdown of your Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs as its exists today?

Mr. MCLEOD. No, sir; I can't, but I hope to have one in the near future. This survey to which Mr. Ford has referred is for the purpose of establishing such a chart.

I found you have to have a chart really to be in business down there, and it's been lacking and we hope to come up with a chart as a result of our survey.

Mr. BROWNSON. We will hope that chart will be available by the time we finally get ready to print these hearings, because I think it would be helpful to explain.

Mr. MCLEOD. I expect in the next 2 or 3 weeks we will have it. (The chart furnished by Mr. McLeod is as follows:)