National forest wilderness-type areas-Name, date of establishment, and acreage of area and national forest, by States, as of June 1, 1958-Continued

National forest wilderness-type areas-Name, date of establishment, and acreage of area and national forest, by States, as of June 1, 1958-Continued PRIMITIVE AREAS

National forest wilderness-type areas-Name, date of establishment, and acreage of area and national forest, by States, as of June 1, 1958-Continued PRIMITIVE AREAS-Continued

2 Selway-Bitterroot primitive area enumerated for Idaho; not in Montana.

Senator BIBLE. May I ask a question of Mr. Crafts, Mr. Chairman ? Senator NEUBERGER. Certainly.

Senator BIBLE. Looking at this map made a part of the hearings on S. 1176 at page 154, it is indicated on the table within national forest areas apparently there are 80 areas. One is described as a roadless area, and you have three such areas listed. What is a roadless area? Mr. CRAFTS. There are three of those. The only place they occur is on the Superior Forest in Minnesota. Since that was prepared, we changed the name of that area. They are no longer called roadless areas. We call that now the boundary waters canoe area. That is an area set up under special administrative regulations of the Secretary. It is somewhat different.

Senator BIBLE. By the Secretary of Agriculture?

Mr. CRAFTS. That's right. It is somewhat different than the normal wilderness areas. There is logging in part of that area. But for the

most part, it is a canoe area along the international boundary between Canada and the United States.

Senator BIBLE. The next classification within the national forest areas are designated wild areas, and apparently there are 19 of those. How do you describe a wild area?

Mr. CRAFTS. Wild areas and wilderness areas are exactly the same thing with two differences. One, a wild area is less than 100,000 acres, a wilderness area is more than 100,000 acres.

Two, a wild area is established by order of the Chief of the Forest Service, a wilderness area can be set up only by order of the Secretary of Agriculture. But as far as type of area is concerned, type of use permitted, administration of the area, they are the same.

Senator BIBLE. Your next classification within the national forest area is those called primitive areas. That figure seems to agree very closely to the figure that you testified to this morning, as 42 primitive areas. It looks to me like there might be 43 on this particular table. The primitive area is as defined in your testimony here?

Mr. CRAFTS. That is right. Primitive area was the first classification we used when we initially began to set up these areas in 1924. In 1939 we began to establish wilderness areas and to restudy the primitive areas, do away with that term and reclassify the primitive areas as wilderness or wild areas. We are still in that process, so there are some primitive areas still existing.

Senator BIBLE. What is the difference between primitive area and a wild or wilderness area?

Mr. CRAFTS. The principal difference is that a wild and wilderness area has behind it regulations of the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to types of use permitted. The primitive areas did not have that protection of secretarial regulation to the extent that wilderness area did. It is a paper distinction, actually, Senator Bible. Senator BIBLE. How do you operate a primitive area?

Mr. CRAFTS. The same way as we do a wilderness area.

Senator BIBLE. In other words, a primitive area is the same as a wilderness area?

Mr. CRAFTS. It is as far as the land is concerned; yes. There are certain technical distinctions on the way they are established. It is true that we have not made the careful examination of the boundaries of primitive areas as to whether they are where they should be or whether some areas should be taken out or put in that we have of a wilderness area.

We haven't gotten to it yet as far as the primitive areas are concerned.

Senator BIBLE. I heard your testimony, but I know you have also heard the testimony of Mr. Abbott on behalf of the Secretary. Do you subscribe to the views that there's great need for some declaration by legislative enactment of the wilderness principle?

Mr. CRAFTS. We concur in that. We so stated a year ago, when we submitted a substitute bill. We concur in those aspects of the present bill.

Senator BIBLE. Do you think there is need at this time for further study before we move forward and attempt to solve some of the differences?

Mr. CRAFTS. We recommend enactment as described.
Senator BIBLE. Thank you, Mr. Crafts.

I apologize for asking those questions out of order. Thank you. Senator NEUBERGER. Senator Jackson, have you further questions. Senator JACKSON. Senator Kuchel is next.

Senator KUCHEL. I have just a couple of questions. Mr. Abbott, the Department by this letter approves the statement of policy in the bill before us?

Mr. ABBOTT. Substantially, yes, Senator Kuchel.

Senator KUCHEL. And, secondly, the Department approves that part of this legislation, I take it, which would cover the 14 million acres of lands presently classified administratively as wilderness, that they be brought into wilderness by legislation?

Mr. ABBOTT. Those areas, Senator Kuchel, or such portions of them as would be under the perfecting and clarifying amendments presented by the Forest Service this morning, determined to be valuable as wilderness or wild areas.

Senator KUCHEL. You concur with the recommendation of the Forest Service in that regard?

Mr. ABBOTT. Yes, sir; we do.

Senator KUCHEL. On your third basic recommendation for action at this time, you state on page 3 you believe efforts should be made to reach agreement on general and specific authority for future designation of additional wilderness areas. Does the bill, in your judgment, lay down general guidelines to do that very thing?

Mr. ABBOTT. Well, it does, Senator, in a manner and I know this is notwithstanding the efforts of the people who are proponents of the legislation, and notwithstanding the numerous consultations we have had with them-it does, without the specification and clarity that we feel must be in a policy step of this sort, set out so as to relate what is proposed to be done with this resource value to, as nearly as we can figure in our own department, some place between 70 and 90 enactments of the Congress dealing with other resources.

Senator KUCHEL. Do you, in these specific recommendations you make in the Secretary's letter subsequently, spell out your recommendations on the procedural requirement?

Mr. ABBOTT. On that point, Senator Kuchel, we do not. We would certainly make our technical people and our legal people available to develop the necessary procedural provisions. But as we do point out, we think that to accomplish particularly this third objective goes back perhaps to the axiomatic statement made earlier that you cannot have public acceptance without public understanding. We therefore feel that procedural steps which might be set up relative to designations, as we point out, both in my statement and in the report, might appropriately include consultation with the interested Federal agencies, affected governmental subdivisions, the user groups, if any, or certainly representatives of them, and an opportunity for public hearings, as well as consideration, as this goes along, consideration of the recommendations which might be made by the Recreation Resources Commission.

Senator KUCHEL. So that with respect to any action that might be taken on the bill before us, would it be fair to say that the Department's recommendation for immediate action is embodied in its first two basic recommendations and not its third?

Mr. ABBOTT. Yes, sir. I think that the Department would and could support an additional provision, if we take the first two objec