What do you mean by— We question, however, the desirability of creating an arrangement which would encourage the continued separate treatment of these areas. Do you think the existing wilderness system we have should be modified? Mr. ABBOTT. No, Senator. I think it might have been put more clearly, but, in the context in which that remark was made, I know it is intended to refer only to creating an organizational arrangement, an organizational arrangement which would isolate out of the normal channels of other resources matters, whether advisory groups or action groups. It is to pull the wilderness out to the side that is the question there, I believe. Senator NEUBERGER. I still don't get what you mean in there. I am confused. As Mr. Crafts testified earlier, when a certain area is taken out of the wilderness part of the national forest and put into the rest. of the national forest, it ceases, in Mr. Crafts' definition, within the lifetime of everybody here and there are some very young people here, I am happy to notice to be possible to ever be restored to wilderness. If you were to question the desirability of creating an arrangement which would encourage the continued separate treatment of these areas, I still don't understand what that means. It has been my feeling that the Secretary has favored generally the objective of wilderness preservation. Mr. ABBOTT. The clear intent of that, Senator-and I can only say it again: it must be taken in context in the entire comment at this point-resolves around the desirability of creating the Wilderness Council as it is proposed in the legislation, and with the strong feeling that there should be a chairmanship and with the procedural control in the Executive, that is, in the President or his designee. I personally know of no other arrangement in Government-and there may be some-which would find existing a similar type of advisory group. Senator NEUBERGER. I do not want to belabor it any further. Do you have further questions? Senator BIBLE. I do not know whether I have a proper question of Mr. Abbott. I did hear the request, on behalf of Senator Murray, that we be furnished with the list of the primitive areas or wilderness areas in the State of Washington. I think it would be helpful if we have for the committee's use, furnished by either Forest Service I assume it is by Forest Service-a list of all the wilderness areas throughout the entire United States. Maybe that is in the record. I don't know. Mr. STONG. Senator, there is in the old hearings a map containing the list of wilderness areas. Senator JACKSON. I am referring to section 2 (a) of the bill, which provides the wilderness system shall include the areas within the national forest itself classified on June 1, 1958, by the Department of Agriculture or the Forest Service as wilderness, wild, primitive, or roadless. Can we get that? Otherwise, we don't know just what we are talking about. Senator BIBLE. May I ask if this map shows that? Senator NEUBERGER. May I ask Mr. Crafts if this map would show these various areas as of June 1, 1958? Mr. CRAFTS. I would have to look at that map. Senator NEUBERGER. Would you show it to Mr. Crafts, Mr. Stong, please? Mr. CRAFTS. I would have to say, Mr. Chairman, that I don't know, offhand, without a close inspection of this map, but it would be very simple to meet Senator Jackson's request and submit to the committee a list, by name and location and acreage, of all of the areas within the national forests for which Agriculture is responsible. We would be happy to do that. Senator JACKSON. We need that, because, otherwise, we don't know what we are referring to. Mr. CRAFTS. And as of June 1, 1958, there has been some change in the past year, since we testified a year ago. It may be that this is not entirely up to date. I just don't know. Senator NEUBERGER. For example, the size of the Three Sisters area in Oregon was adjusted or changed to some degree. Senator JACKSON. As near as you can, the acreage and metes-andbounds description, not the exact metes and bounds, but, if you have a map showing the identifiable area, it would be well to submit that. There have been so many rumors and stories out that it is going this direction and that direction. Mr. CRAFTS. We have a map which we submitted a year ago, Senator Jackson, that shows the areas by name and type, and we can attach that to the submission. Senator JACKSON. Just so you understand, we need a boundary line just as we do in a national park. We want to know where it is going. (The document referred to follows:) UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, FOREST SERVICE, Washington, D. C., July 30, 1958. Hon. JAMES E. MURRAY, United States Senate. DEAR SENATOR MURRAY: The attached list of national-forest, wilderness-type areas as of June 1, 1958, and map showing their location are transmitted in reply to the requests of Senator Jackson and Mr. Stong at hearings of July 23 before your committee on S. 4028, relating to the establishment of a national wilderness preservation system, and for insertion in the transcript of the hearings. A summary of the areas is attached, also. The list shows each wilderness, wild, roadless, and primitive area in the national forests by acreage, State, national forests in which located, and the date each was established. It, therefore, provides also the information for the State of Washington which was requested by Mr. Stong. The 42 primitive areas, comprising 8,195,539 acres in 52 national forests, would automatically become, by provisions of S. 4028, a part of the wilderness system unless the Secretary of Agriculture determines within 10 years they or any part thereof are not predominantly of wilderness value. It is with respect to these areas that the Department of Agriculture, in its report of July 23, 1958, recommends that they temporarily be made a part of the wilderness system, but remain in the system only if the Secretary of Agriculture affirmatively determines within 15 years they are predominantly of wilderness value. The information regarding Forest Service advisory committees requested by Senator Neuberger will be transmitted to you at an early date. Very truly yours, EDWARD C. CRAFTS, |