Back home the majority think the way I do. I am a fair reflection of the people in Dallas.

Mr. SwIRE. I do appreciate what you have said. This is listed as an insurance program and the King bill is not charity. We think the people are willing to set money aside for themselves so when they retire they can have benefits based on their contributions. We are not particularly worried about the compulsory aspect of it. We have compulsory taxes. If I try to get out of paying my taxes, I have a problem.

Some years, as did many others, I received a letter from President Roosevelt. It was an honor. But nevertheless, if I had been obtuse or decided I don't like that sort of honor, there was not much I could do about it. I would have been compelled to go in the service.

What I am saying is that any government like ours has elements of compulsion. I am not worrying that we apply an insurance program which has a slight compulsory aspect to it with regard to this. Let me say this: That with regard to free private enterprise, there is no difference between the position taken by the labor movement, taken by Carey, taken by myself, with the position you have taken.

Some years ago, if you go back to 1910, 1920, it was pretty rough in this country for lots of people. You had a radical American labor movement then. Beginning with Franklin Roosevelt, when Roosevelt proved that the capitalist society could produce better for our people, the labor movement in this country has been won over completely, so that our people believe in free, private enterprise.

We do not believe, as Mr. King did mention, in that sort of enterprise that some corporations recently have indulged in, which is not competitive. I find in negotiating with many companies, and this concerns foreign competition, that too often many of our companies do not really believe in competition. Competition is the lifeblood of the thing we are talking about today, as you mentioned, the exchange of ideas, that is also basic competition, which is wonderful. We go along with you 100 percent that this country will remain free as long as we have free, private enterprise and as long as we have competing economic groups. As long as we have free, private, competing groups, we are all right in this country.

Mr. ALGER. I think that is a fine statement, and I must tell you then I think that is part of the problem. In legislation that comes before us I find myself at odds with labor, and yet it appears that our goal is the same. There is a different point of view because labor says I am zero and I am one of the worst Members here, and yet I would like to feel as though I am just as much a humanitarian in trying to solve the problem in what I call a constitutional, American way, rather than borrowing these Socialist ideas from abroad. You say they are better. I do not.

I think that is the difference in our views.

Mr. SWIRE. We are not recommending we borrow socialism from abroad; I think Sweden is not a socialistic country particularly. They have a lot of Socialists. It is a cooperative country. I am not sure that their method of solving the problem is our method. I think we can look at it. I do not think we have the answers to all the problems of the world and neither to they. I think we can look everything else over and see what suits us best.

Mr. ALGER. This is going to go on and on, and on, Mr. Chairman, if one of us does not stop.

Mr. SWIRE. I will.

Mr. ALGER. I want you to understand at this point I disagree and I told you before we do not need any lessons from abroad. That is what we ran away from and we have the good sense in this room and in this country to solve our problems without taking one look at Sweden. There is where we differ.

Mr. SWIRE. Let me make one last statement. The atom bomb would never have been developed in this country at the time it was if it had not been for foreign people overseas who came here because of difficulties over there. What I am saying is we do not have a monopoly on ideas of any sort. There are people in other parts of the world who have ideas that can be helpful to us and they can got a lot of good ideas from us, and how.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe we better stop this debate at this point. Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman, I think you could close with one com

ment.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. KING. You heard the invitation of one another to have Mr. James Carey and Mr. Bruce Alger debate. I suggest, however, the agency in that case, invite some of our scientific minds down to this debate to observe that saying of the irresistible force coming in contact with an immovable object.

Mr. SWIRE. Thanks a lot.

Mr. KING (presiding). Any further questions?

Mr. KNOX. Mr. Chairman, I have one.

Mr. KING. Mr. Knox.

Mr. Knox. The question I have is relative to the segment of our population that would be involved with the obligation of making the funds available for the provisions of the King bill. It is my understanding from your testimony that you highly endorse the King

bill.

Therefore, you would levy a tax on the first $5,200 of earnings of those who are covered under the Social Security Act. Is that correct? May I ask what your opinion is relative to the 40 percent of the national income that would not make any contribution to the care of the elderly people?

Mr. SWIRE. People who are not covered by social security?

Mr. KNOX. Forty percent of the national income is not subject to the tax provided for under the King bill, such as investment income and those people whose incomes are not covered. Do you feel that those with this 40 percent of the national income should have no obligation as far as the care of our elderly people are concerned?

Mr. SWIRE. Very honestly, I would have to do a lot of thinking before I could respond. It is a pretty complicated question. I haven't gone into it and I could not give you an honest answer right

now.

Mr. KNOX. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions of Mr. Swire?

If not, Mr. Swire, we thank you again, sir, for your discussion of this matter.

Mr. SWIRE. Thank you.

(The letter of Mr. Adams referred to previously follows:)

THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LIFE UNDERWRITERS,
Washington, D.C., August 4, 1961.

Re H.R. 4222.

Hon. WILBUR D. MILLS,

Chairman, Committee on Ways and Means,
House Office Building, Washington, D.O.

DEAR MR. MILLS: You were kind enough to grant me the opportunity to appear before your committee today, August 4, to express my association's views in opposition to the enactment of H.R. 4222.

In the meantime, we have carefully studied the statement made to your committee by H. Lewis Rietz on behalf of the American Life Convention, the Health Insurance Association of America, and the Life Insurance Association of America on July 31, 1961. We find that the statement we had intended to make would be practically a duplication of his, and, therefore, in the interest of saving time for you and your committee, we are asking to be excused from appearing.

May we take this opportunity of expressing our complete endorsement of Mr. Rietz' statement. In particular, our association's policy is identical with his expressions regarding the Kerr-Mills program outlined on pages 17. 18, and 19 of his statement, as well as with his views in opposition to increasing the taxable wage base as set forth on pages 8 and 9 of his statement.

We respectfully urge that your committee reject H.R. 4222 or any similar legislation.

Thanking you for the courtesy extended to us and requesting that this letter be made a part of the record of the hearings held on H.R. 4222, I am,

Very truly yours,

ALBERT C. ADAMS, Chairman, Committee on Social Security.

P.S.-Enclosed herewith for your information is the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare's special weekly report of July 31, 1961, captioned "Activities of the 54 Jurisdictions To Put Into Effect the New Program of Medical Assistance for the Aged."

A. C. A.

SPECIAL WEEKLY REPORT, JULY 31, 1961-ACTIVITIES OF THE 54 JURISDICTIONS TO
PUT INTO EFFECT THE NEW PROGRAM OF MEDICAL ASSISTANCE FOR THE AGED
A. Programs in effect,1 13 States: Idaho (July), Kentucky, Maryland (June),
Massachusetts, Michigan, New York (April), Oklahoma, Puerto Rico, South
Carolina (July), Utah (July), Virgin Islands, Washington, and West Virginia.
B. Plan submitted, not in effect, 3 States: Arkansas (approved), Oregon (ap-
proved effective November 1, 1961), and North Dakota (effective July 1, 1961)
(in regional office.

C. Legislation enacted, plan not yet submitted, 8 States: California (effective January 1, 1962), Connecticut (effective April 15, 1962), Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine (effective July 1, 1961), New Hampshire (effective October 1, 1961), Pennsylvania, and Tennessee (effective July 1, 1961).

D. Legislation in process to give basis for program or to provide appropriation, 6 States: Passed both houses: Illinois and Vermont; passed one house: Alabama and Wisconsin; bill introduced: New Jersey' and Ohio; other status (drafted): None.

E. Considering possible action by legislature, 2 States: Delaware and District of Columbia.

5

F. Need legislation; no action is anticipated in 1961, 19 States: Adjourned without action: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Guam, Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Rhode Island. South Dakota, Texas," and Wyoming; session in 1962: Mississippi and Virginia.

1 Plans of these States are approved, except New York, South Carolina, Utah, and Idaho. 2 Effective date postponed by State until funds are available.

3 Effective first of month following month in which plan is approved.

* Intermittently in session; summer recess began June 2.

Do not have in operation vendor payment for medical care in OAA.
Except proposed constitutional amendment for future MAA program.

G. Have authority for MAA; not expected to implement in 1961-62; legislature adjourned, 3 States: Georgia -enacted 1961, no funds available; Iowaenacted 1961, no appropriation; New Mexico-plan withdrawn, no appropriation.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Hymes.

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, may I make a unanimous consent request?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, I have been doing a little work on my own to get some material on medical care plans for pensioners and this has been accomplished with a group of insurance companies. I have here a list which I would like for the record of about 150 companies that I did identify who have medical care plans, and then I picked out about 30 of the largest and wrote to them and asked them to give me information on these plans. I am very pleased to have a 100 percent response and I would like at this time to have those placed in the record. Some of them will not come until Monday or Tuesday, I understand, but if I may do so I would like to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that material will be included. at the proper place in the record.

(Information referred to follows:)

Mr. CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, under permission given during the hearings on H.R. 4222, I should like to place in the hearing record the results of a survey I have made among major companies in this country to determine what provisions have been made by these companies for the financing of health care for their retired workers.

First, I am placing in the record a list which has been prepared for me of companies and organizations having medical care plans for pensioners. This list is not exhaustive, but it is certainly indicative of the interest which industry has shown in providing for the health needs of its retired workers.

COMPANIES HAVING MEDICAL CARE PLANS FOR PENSIONERS

Aluminum Co. of America

Armour & Co.

Bell & Gossett Co.

Commonwealth Edison Co.

John Morrell & Co.

Northern Illinois Gas Co.

Olin Mathieson Chemical Corp.
Ormet Corp.

F. H. Peavey & Co.

Reynolds Metals Co.

Russell-Miller Milling Co.

Columbia Gas System

Douglas Aircraft Co.

American Enka Corp.

American Home Products Corp.
American Telephone & Telegraph Co.
Behr-Manning Co.

Bell Telephone Laboratories, Bell Tele-
phone of Pennsylvania

Bunker Hill & Sullivan Mining & Concentrating Co.

Carrier Corp.

Caterpillar Tractor Co.

Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Co.
Cincinnati & Suburban Bell Telephone
Co.

Electrical Workers (BEW), Local 134 Connecticut Light & Power Co.

Otis Elevator Co.

Owens-Illinois Co.

Painters & Decorators Welfare Fund

Panhandle Eastern Pipe Line Co.
Radio Corp. of America

Singer Manufacturing Co.

Sylvania Electric Products, Inc.
United Airlines

United Carbon Co.

Westinghouse Electric Corp.
Whirlpool Corp.

Abbott Laboratories

American Cyanamid Co.

Diamond Crystal Salt Co.

Equitable Life Assurance Society

Fidelity Mutual Life Insurance Co.
Hartford Gas Co.
Harvard University
H. J. Heinz Co.

Hoffman-La Roche, Inc.
Illinois Bell Telephone Co.
Indiana Bell Telephone Co.

International Business Machines Corp.
Investors Diversified Services, Inc.

Maine Merchants Association

COMPANIES HAVING MEDICAL CARE PLANS FOR PENSIONERS-Continued Michigan Bell Telephone Co., Moun- | Clothing Workers tain States Telephone & Telegraph Coleman Co., Inc. Co.

New England Telephone & Telegraph Connecticut Bank & Trust Co.
Co.