Secretary PATTERSON. I will have to get the details on that for you, Senator Hawkes.

Senator HAWKES. Very well.

Secretary PATTERSON (continuing). War has cut industry off from its primary source of workers-young men coming of working age. Virtually all young men of 18 who are physically fit enter the armed forces. War industry can get only the IV-F's and of course it does not get all of them.

Senator HILL. When a man is rejected and put in IV-F there is no control over what he does; he can go back and jerk soda water, can he not?

Secretary PATTERSON. He is entirely a free agent.

Senator CHANDLER. Don't we suffer a lot because of that?

Secretary PATTERSON. Of course we do.

Senator CHANDLER. Are there not a lot of IV-F's that could do a lot of things other than as they please?

Secretary PATTERSON. Absolutely.

Senator CHANDLER. What is the remedy for that?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think the passage of this bill.

Senator REVERCOMB. Can you not change your rules of accepting men in the Army and take some of these IV-F's and put them in places where they could serve?

Secretary PATTERSON. This bill as originally introduced provided for that, but the Army has all of the limited-service men it can possibly use.

Senator HILL. You mean, as far as Army duties are concerned? Secretary PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator HILL. You do not need any more limited service men as far as the military machine is concerned?

Secretary PATTERSON. Of the 900,000 men to be inducted in the first 6 months, both the Army and the Navy want those men to be fit for combat, for all around service, and we have no use and no need for IV-F's or men who as soon as they get into the Army will have to be taken care of in a hospital. We are short of nurses already. We need them in civilian industry.

Senator REVERCOMB. Why not put them in the hospitals? I understand you have a million and a half men in warehouses working as guards.

Secretary PATTERSON. The great bulk of those are limited service. men or returned veterans. They have cleaned out the Army in the continental zones. The Army Ground Service and Service Forces have been cleaned of general-service men. There are still some left in the air forces fit to go overseas who haven't gone over.

Senator MAYBANK. I think one of the reasons for difficulty among people in the farm groups, especially down home, is because of this IV-F reason. Many of the colored laborers will be classified IV-F and then they will quit their jobs on the farm and go to town and get a job as a bellboy or waiter where they get three times as much wages as they did before being put in IV-F.

Secretary PATTERSON. The way to mobilize the IV-Fs is to get them placed in essential civilian industry rather than take them into the armed forces. I have given a great deal of thought to that.

Senator REVERCOMB. If you took them into the armed forces you would have sole control over them?

Secretary PATTERSON. Of course, that is a good argument for this bill. They say: "Put them in the Army so you can control them." Why must they go into the Army in order to be controlled when you want them in civilian industry as civilians? It would raise all kinds of problems if you had them in the Army and then try to assign them to civilian work.

Senator HILL. You would run into the question of pay, allotments, and all of that.

Secretary PATTERSON. Oh, yes; we have done it on a furlough basis, but it is to be deplored.

Senator MAYBANK. Does not this bill also cover farm workers?
Secretary PATTERSEN. Yes, sir.

Senator MAYBANK. How can you give deferment to a IV-F and then put him in the Army; how can you do that?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think they can recruit men for farm work in the same way they recruit men for industry under this bill where there is a shortage.

Senator MAYBANK. You could not in the Army.

Secretary PATTERSON. NO.

Senator REVERCOMB. Can you not find a place for them in the Army?

Secretary PATTERSON. No, sir. We have all of the limited-service men now that we can effectively handle. If we take a lot more limitedservice men in the Army, it will just run up the number we will have in hospitals. We have already a shortage of hospital personnel.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Are you going to escape that dilemma by drafting them and putting them into some factory?

Secretary PATTERSON. That can be handled by regular normal civilian facilities, I take it.

Senator O'MAHONEY. But they are going to put some-I don't know how many, but they would feel, probably in good faith, that by reason of the compulsion there, which is taking them from their homes and putting them into the factory of some corporation or some individual who is making a profit out of their labor, that they have suffered physically or mentally or financially, and they will feel that they are entitled to make a claim against the Government.

Now, when we take a man and put him into a factory, the Congress is prepared to meet that obligation so far as paying money is concerned, to compensate him now and hereafter, and we are prepared to do it. Are you prepared to compensate these men whom you force into another man's factory, and if you are not prepared to do it, what justification can there be for not doing it?

Secretary PATTERSON. He has the same compensation as any other worker who is a volunteer, he has the same rights under Workmen's Compensation.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I know, but you take him from a community in which he is voluntarily living, you transport him across the country against his will, because this is a compulsory bill, you put him in an altogether different environment, and you require him to submit to that other environment. Do you think the country will escape demand for compensation to that man if he suffers, or thinks he suffers injury as a result?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think it can; yes. I think he has the ordinary rights as a worker. His economic rights will take care of

that case, just like the other workers that are already there. I do not see any difference there at all.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I see, but it is different.

Secretary PATTERSON. Of course he may not like it; yet it is little enough hardship compared to the hardship the men in the armed forces are facing.

Senator O'MAHONEY. When we take a man and put him in the armed forces

Secretary PATTERSON. I was down in Australia, the city of Sydney, and I saw a notice in the morning paper for nearly 500 taxicab drivers by the War Manpower Commission, who sent 500 of them out to help load vessels taking on supplies. I asked their War Minister, Mr. Ford, about that, and he said that that is nothing unusual there. He said there were plenty of taxicab drivers around the city of Sydney. Those vessels had to be loaded, everybody admitted that, to get the supplies promptly to our armed forces. Those men would rather go up and fight, but the loading of these vessels had to be done.

Here we had the same thing up in Philadelphia around Christmas time; we had to send a battalion of soldiers to load those vessels.

Senator HILL. Do you mind putting that in the record, the fact about that battalion of soldiers?

Secretary PATTERSON. No; put that in. The battalion of soldiers had to load the vessels because they could not find enough civilians to do it.

Senator CHANDLER. Were the soldiers doing anything else at the same time?

Secretary PATTERSON. I don't know.

Senator CHANDLER. I have had people object to that, but I have approved it. You used some people in my country, and they wanted me to object and I said I would not do it, if the people are not at work. Secretary PATTERSON. I do not approve of its being done by soldiers at all, but in an emergency it has to be done that way. Of course, they should have recruited enough civilians from the city of Philadelphia to take care of the loading of those ships, but it was obligatory upon us to get those ships loaded fast.

Senator HILL. That was just when the Von Rundstedt drive was going on too.

Secretary PATTERSON. That is one of the things pointed out to me. Any injustice that I see there in that situation

Senator REVERCOMB. Do you know that civilian labor was available quickly in the city of Philadelphia, in the instance you speak of?

Secretary PATTERSON. I know, in a city of that size, some nearly 2,000,000 people, they could get 500 civilians, or something like that, to load ships; I know that.

Senator REVERCOMB. Was an effort made to get civilians?

Secretary PATTERSON. Yes; and they had to take troops, and that is not the only time either, and why? Because we had control of the troops. They say you should not have forced labor. That was forced labor. Where is the justice to the man who is in one of those battalions, to compel him to do some work, when another man, who did not happen to be in the Army said, "I won't do it"?

Senator HAWKES. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Secretary another question? Have you had any other cases where you had to resort to the Army to do work that should have been done by civilian labor?

Secretary PATTERSON. Yes, Senator. I could mention that we have about 16,000 soldiers out now on furlough, where it was done as a last resort, it being utterly impossible to recruit workers from the civilians, to work on a program that was of such urgent importance we just had to get the manpower. We have got pending now several hundred requests to furlough soldiers to fill acute manpower shortages. We cannot go on that way. It ruins the morale of the soldiers. The soldiers like it that way, and the nonfurloughed soldiers says "Furlough me; I would like to do that too, in the Army," but General Marshall has set his face against it, and properly so.

Senator HAWKES. Do you pay those soldiers on furlough regular service rates?

Secretary PATTERSON. They get double pay; they get pay from the Army and they also get pay at the civilian rate. That is another crying shame, but you have to fight fire with fire. You have to have the munitions, the trucks, the tires. General Eisenhower sends over here and says, "You must step up production on that item," and as a last resort, when worst comes to worst, we have to take some soldiers

Senator O'MAHONEY. How long do these furloughs last as a rule? Secretary PATTERSON. Ninety days.

Senator MAYBANK. You have furloughed soldiers in South Carolina to work in the cotton duck plants and in one case what you had to do was to furlough soldiers and to send Army officers out to run the cotton mills.

Secretary PATTERSON. We have been using these attempts for the last 2 years, running around trying to cure manpower shortages.

Senator MAYBANK. You have officers and soldiers on furlough from the Army, you have to have the officers to see that the soldiers go to work in the morning in the cotton mills

Secretary PATTERSON. I think there are a thousand soldiers— Senator MAYBANK. You have 25 officers to see that the soldiers go to work in the morning.

Secretary PATTERSON. That is about right.

Senator CHANDLER. If you continue this sort of absolute direction over the lives of the people, what is the difference between that and what the Germans have been doing; what we think we have been fighting against?

Secretary PATTERSON. The British did it; the Australians did it, the New Zealanders did it, and they are still democracies. Senator CHANDLER. It is not democracy as I have heard it. That is the way to destroy democracy. At least, if I am correctly informed about what this is, you can come into a community and tell a fellow, you have got to pull up and go away to some other place; we are going to take you out of your State

Secretary PATTERSON. I think democracy is fairness to all, treating them all alike, but to take a man out and make him fight in battle and lose his life and limb, and tell another man, you don't need to do anything

Senator CHANDLER. All of my life I have heard that is what it was, that each fellow was entitled to the same kind of fair treatment. You know better, because I was in the Army, and there is no way that you can give the Army private fair treatment when he sees that there are

other fellows who outrank him, officers, who outrank him in pay, and so forth; there is no such thing as fair treatment

Secretary PATTERSON. There is equal obligation for each one to serve where the Nation thinks he can best serve.

Senator CHANDLER. You take a fellow, you do not draft him, you order him, and you tell him to go from his place in South Carolina to Los Angeles, say, and you tell him, you have got to take this job in this place, as Senator O'Mahoney says. If the war is over, then he is to go back. There is no provision if he ever does. What have we come to?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think the bill provides for moving expenses. Senator CHANDLER. What about his housing? What is the reason you cannot use the manpower that may be available to assume any task which may be necessary in the defense of this country? I don't get the idea, because he is not doing anything that is more important at the moment than doing the job that has to be done. There are, of course, some people who object to it, and some people say there is not any other manpower available, use soldiers.

Secretary PATTERSON. You force the soldier to work in a civilian war industry, don't you?

Senator CHANDLER. Yes, sir; and some of them like it better than some of the other tasks they are going to be doing. I have had tasks like that. I mean, when you are a soldier you do whatever they tell you.

Secretary PATTERSON. Whether they like it or not, it is civilian work normally done by civilians, and why should they induct a man into the Army and then make him do work which is normally done by civilian labor?

Senator CHANDLER. The question is, What are we coming to now, when everybody is going to be forced, if they have not already gone, into Government work? That is what we are talking about, and that is not the kind of government we have always been talking about. Secretary PATTERSON. Nevertheless, the work has to be done. There remain only two large sources of workers for war industries: (1) Men and women in less essential work.

(2) Women not employed outside their homes.

There are millions of persons engaged in activities that have very little or nothing to do with carrying on the war-making and selling jewelry, perfumery, draperies, novelties, toys and games, raising flowers, tending golf clubs, and hundreds of similar activities.

Last December there were 12,000,000 working in retail and wholesale trades and services. Not all of those were in nonessential work. But the astonishing thing is that employment in trades and services last December was the s me as in December 1940. During 1944 some slight losses in trades and services in the previous 2 years were regained. The CHAIRMAN. Judge, there, I think we ought to be careful with that kind of comparison, merely citing statistics. You have had a great increase in your trades and services and probably not the same people. You have merely gotten the same numbers, probably

Secretary PATTERSON. Oh, that is true, they are not the same people. The CHAIRMAN. We might come to a very, very fallacious conclusion if we are not careful in that. The minute you start inflation, why, up go your trades and services.