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. May I ask one question? Is there any difference

SM, But they nment-run plant and an industry plant in this

RSON. No, I think not. It is very high in ship'e out of my bailiwick because that comes mostly 1 the Maritime Commission.

But in the Tennessee plant, that is wholly Governnot?

ON. No, that is a constrator job.
contractor has it?

N. Yes, sir. But the Aberdeen Proving Ground
mory, those would be cases of straight Govern-

Th charg hoardin training according Senator to when it with a stat much higher Secretary The number o Senator CHA contributions to people have bee Secretary PAT not make our sch most critical prog ammunition, and r and when they thin for a permanent job. Senator REVERCOM. given out by Govern Secretary PATTERSO both by people here and were urged not to leave production, but they nev.

turn-over is just as high in those places?

I question if it is as high, although I do not stion whether it is as high.

urse, when you move into a place like east nt at Knoxville, you have gone to a place ble, have you not?

Yes, sir.

have brought a restlessness in the inception

he location of the plant at that place lems, unquestionably, but for security

criticizing; I am merely trying to get inizing, Judge, is gone, if we are going to want the information to do it.

nuing). Here is the case of two steel 044 with total employment of 192,000.

ended the year with 11,000 fewer

avy hired 270,000 civilian workers in nd up with a net loss of 11,000. For red 10 workers to get an actual in

man counteroffensive of December, plants dropped. When war news y certain that large numbers will are still urgently needed.

- information as to whether these than they had at the end of the ion because they lacked men, or the plant that made it unneceshe end of the year?

anding was these were not laytwo companies.

g for information. I am very ng about. I have not reached mation. I can conceive of a

still have 11,000 less men at g, and that is vital if we are figures.

Secretary PATTERSON. Everyone of them. Teachers and students who have been working during the summer quit in September. That is an abnormal thing, and I would not count those peaks there. Every year it is like that. I suppose that is a natural thing and there is no particular significance to it.

The CHAIRMAN. Judge, have you tried to account for this increased turn-over, why it has gone up?

Secretary PATTERSON. Restlessness.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the country is getting more fatigued, the same as the man on the front?

Senator JOHNSON. Getting the wrinkles out, maybe.

The

Secretary PATTERSON. I think a lot of them have migrated to a new place. They work in a war plant that is not their home. more distant field always looks fairer than the one they are in. At any rate there has been a great milling around, and it has been one of the causes of great concern to everyone responsible for production in war industry.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you think this bill will stop the milling around?

Secretary PATTERSON. The second paragraph of it forbids men to leave war plants without Government approval.

Senator JOHNSON. But if it is restlessness, you will not make a man quit because he is sick?

Secretary PATTERSON. No, it is just the voluntary quit part.

Senator JOHNSON. But you won't let a man quit if he is drunk and all of these other things go with restlessness. The things that cause not showing up on Monday morning and things of that kind, which has been inherent in industry since we established a rest day.

Secretary PATTERSON. I think the Department of Labor believes 2 percent per month to be normal for quits, or something like that. We have a rate of involuntary quits now of something over 5 percent per month, or 60 percent per annum.

The CHAIRMAN. Your chart would show, assuming you started at normalcy, a little higher rate than the Labor Department statistics? Secretary PATTERSON. The present rate is more than double normal. The CHAIRMAN. It is now?

Secretary PATTERSON. Yes, sir. The first chart shows that. Senator JOHNSON. It would be unreasonable to expect it would go at the normal rate, because in times like these we have a lot of marginal workers who do not pretend to work the year round.

Secretary PATTERSON. Those people contribute to the higher rate, no doubt. The steady workers at a plant who have been there before and are settled there, there is not much increase in quits rate per month by them; it is the people who have recently come into the labor force. Senator JOHNSON. If 2 percent is normal and we have reached 51⁄2 percent, I think that would be just about what one would expect. Secretary PATTERSON. Well, it is a disturbing thing and it poses some very hard problems in recruiting people for war production, because you have to overcome that before you count anything. The CHAIRMAN. Has anyone advanced the theory, Judge, that the increase in hours of labor has contributed to this restlessness?

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not think so. The average hours per week are not unduly high. I think they are 47 hours a week.

The CHAIRMAN. And still you have a lot of married women that you did not have before?

Secretary PATTERSON. The rate among women is higher than among

men.

Senator HILL. What would the 5% percent run in total figure? Secretary PATTERSON. I think they calculate what they call war industry, which does not include supporting industry-I think they count 9,300,000 people. It was 10,700,000 at the end of 1943. We lost around 1,400,000.

Senator REVERCOMB. What part would be men between the ages of 18 and 45?

Secretary PATTERSON. I don't know.

Senator REVERCOMB. What part would be men of any age?

Secretary PATTERSON. There are statistics on that, but I do not have them in my head.

Senator REVERCOMB. The men are less in number than the women? Secretary PATTERSON. There are more men than women.

Senator REVERCOMB. The quits?

Secretary PATTERSON. No. On quits, the rate among women is higher.

Senator REVERCOMB. You have given a percentage of 5% on quits per month.

Secretary PATTERSON. That is the figure I carry in my head and that is reflected pretty well by that chart.

Senator REVERCOMB. What is the figure on men alone, the quits per month?

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not know.

Senator REVERCOMB. It would be less than 5%1⁄2?

Secretary PATTERSON. A little less, no doubt. There is not a great disparity between men and women. The women are somewhat

higher.

That 7 percent is equivalent to 84 percent a year. We hear charges of labor hoarding in war plants. Much of the so-called hoarding represents merely the plant's precaution of hiring and training in February the new workers who will replace those who, according to experience, will be leaving the plant in March.

Senator CHANDLER. Have you noted the fluctuations with respect to when it looks like we are in trouble and when someone comes out with a statement that the war is about over? The fluctuations are much higher when we get the good news.

Secretary PATTERSON. Good news increases the turn-over rate. The number of quits goes up and they begin to look for a post-war job. Senator CHANDLER. Is it a fact that that has been one of the major contributions to the unrest that we discover in the Nation, that the people have been told so often that the war is about over?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think that is the main reason we could not make our schedule in the last 6 months of 1944 on some of the most critical programs we had, tires, heavy-duty trucks, cotton duck, ammunition, and radar. People get very complacent about the war, and when they think it is about over, they think it is time to look for a permanent job.

Senator REVERCOMB. They had reason to do that, from statements given out by Government officials and some high Army officials?

Secretary PATTERSON. There were statements made to that effect both by people here and abroad. At the same time, of course, they were urged not to leave their plant because they still needed their production, but they nevertheless left; they were not fired.

Senator REVERCOMB. But they had reason to believe the war in Europe was about at an end?

Secretary PATTERSON. The soldiers did not believe it.

Senator CHANDLER. Off the record.

(Discussion was had outside the record.)

Senator O'MAHONEY. You were speaking, Judge Patterson, about this tremendous turn-over of over 5 percent and how every bit of good news has a tendency to cause people to drop their work. Some of the suggestions that have brought about that result have come from persons in important places in the war effort. May I ask you what has been done by the War Department or any other Government agency of which you have knowledge to prevent these turn-overs in the plants; has there been an organized effort to prevent turn-over?

Secretary PATTERSON. There has been an organized effort for 2 years to cut down quits.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What has been done?

Secretary PATTERSON. They have tried every technique they know. We have done it and the War Manpower Commission has done it. The plants have plant interviewers, what are called exit interviewers, and anyone who quits is supposed to have an interview and to be open persuasion to stay. Of course, the War Manpower Commission has had this availability certificate by which a man who quits without permission is not supposed to have an availability certificate so as to be able to get another war job, but as pointed out by Senator Kilgore this morning, that rule is now more in the breach than in the observance and thousands quit without any effort to get an availability certificate.

Senator BURTON. It is not in the statute?

Secretary PATTERSON. No.

Senator REVERCOMB. Why does not the employer require the certificate?

Secretary PATTERSON. They have no control over him unless he has an Army contract. But to go to a department store and work, they do not need a certificate. Who is going to control that?

Senator O'MAHONEY. I am told there are contractors who refuse to permit the War Manpower inspectors to enter their plants to determine what the utilization of labor may be.

Secretary PATTERSON. We were talking about voluntary quits. That is a different question. There was an issue up a year ago as to who was responsible for productivity of labor. The Army and Navy and the War Production Board made the point there should be a single authority responsible for production in the plant. We thought that in an aircraft plant the Army Air Forces were responsible, since we are the person to whom the contractor is accustomed to look for directions. We said we were responsible in aircraft plants for effective utilization of labor. Some people in the War Manpower Commission thought they should take over the job. Justice Byrnes ruled they should not except by our leave or by request from us. That is a different question, however.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I understand that.

Secretary PATTERSON. That has to do with waste of labor, on which I will touch in a minute.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Just go ahead without interruption.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask one question? Is there any difference between a Government-run plant and an industry plant in this turn-over?

Secretary PATTERSON. No, I think not. It is very high in shipyards. It is a little out of my bailiwick because that comes mostly under the Navy and the Maritime Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. But in the Tennessee plant, that is wholly Government-controlled, is it not?

Secretary PATTERSON. No, that is a constrator job.

The CHAIRMAN. A contractor has it?

Secretary PATTERSON. Yes, sir. But the Aberdeen Proving Ground and the Springfield Armory, those would be cases of straight Government-operated plants.

The CHAIRMAN. The turn-over is just as high in those places? Secretary PATTERSON. I question if it is as high, although I do not have the figures. I question whether it is as high.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, when you move into a place like east Tennessee, the great plant at Knoxville, you have gone to a place where labor is not available, have you not?

Secretary PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you have brought a restlessness in the inception of the plant?

Secretary PATTERSON. The location of the plant at that place presented some labor problems, unquestionably, but for security

reasons

The CHAIRMAN. I am not criticizing; I am merely trying to get information. The day of criticizing, Judge, is gone, if we are going to get this bill over quick. We want the information to do it.

Secretary PATTERSON (continuing). Here is the case of two steel. companies. They began in 1944 with total employment of 192,000. They hired 41,000. But they ended the year with 11,000 fewer workers than when they began.

In the last 18 months the Navy hired 270,000 civilian workers in continental navy yards, only to end up with a net loss of 11,000. For all naval activities the Navy hired 10 workers to get an actual in

crease of 1.

In the weeks following the German counteroffensive of December, the number of separations in war plants dropped. When war news from Europe brightens, it is fairly certain that large numbers will leave war work, even though they are still urgently needed.

Senator HAWKES. Have you any information as to whether these steel companies wanted more men than they had at the end of the year? Were they down in production because they lacked men, or was there efficiency in the running of the plant that made it unnecessary to have more than they had at the end of the year?

Secretary PATTERSON. My understanding was these were not layoffs. I can get you the names of the two companies.

Senator HAWKES. I am only looking for information. I am very deeply interested in what you are talking about. I have not reached any position and am asking for information. I can conceive of a plant doing all it is expected to do and still have 11,000 less men at the end of the year than at the beginning, and that is vital if we are. going to know the effectiveness of these figures.