The CHAIRMAN. Ordinarily you have dealt with private industry? Mr. McNUTT. That is right. Senator MAYBANK. The Navy has its own Manpower Commission, doesn't it? Mr. McNUTT. It had a group they sent around. Senator MAYBANK. Their manpower needs are determined in the Navy; they don't consult you except to recruit? Mr. McNUTT. Except for what help they want. Senator MAYBANK. With this amendment putting it directly under the Director of Mobilization do you think they would consult you then? Mr. McNUTT. If the Director of Mobilization told them to, I think they would. The CHAIRMAN. Passage of this act will actually then make it possible for better cooperation between the Federal plants and private industry? Mr. McNUTT. I should think so, although the Office of War Mobilization at the present time has been exercising some measure of direction. How much, I don't know, but I have seen the effects. Senator O'MAHONEY. This bill as it now stands deals solely with manpower. It does not deal with the authority of the War Manpower Commission or the Director of War Mobilization to enter any plant and survey the utilization of labor. Senator KILGORE. Isn't it a fact, Governor, that one of the reasons you haven't gone in these plants also is that it is an old Spanish custom that one department of the Government never goes into another department on an inspection trip? Mr. McNUTT. If you will put quotation marks around "old Spanish custom," I will say "Yes." Senator KILGORE. That is what I was told. Senator BURTON. I have this question I am particularly anxious to have the Governor give an answer to, because I think he is the one man who has had experience with this matter in the past and he is likely to have it in the future if the bill goes through. I call your attention to section 6 of the proposed bill. This is the section that deals with the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act of 1940, as amended. Under this section in this bill it places these persons in the same status as the military personnel except as to insurance. That is, a moratorium is declared on their debts. Whereas, the men that are frozen in essential industry do not get their taxes deferred or their mortgages put under moratorium. I ask you whether or not you consider that a reasonable distinction. or reasonable administration? Mr. McNUTT. I feel any distinction is inexcusable. If any benefits are to be conferred, they should be conferred upon those who are willing to go to such a plant and work and stay in such a plant, rather than to give them to those who are driven to such a plant to work. Senator BURTON. That leads to either of two conclusions to remedy the situation. One would be to extend these benefits of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act to those under 5 (n) (2). That would mean those frozen would get the benefits. I ask you what would be your opinion as to that discriminatory benefit as compared to those in an area of this country who were not frozen because it was not found necessary to freeze them? Mr. McNUTT. I feel we are on dangerous ground the moment we start making a distinction between those making contributions to the war effort. Senator BURTON. You have been administering this situation over a period of a year or more without the benefit of such provision. Have you found a great need for the extension of the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act to these men? Mr. McNUTT. Those who have been employed have been making money. I would suppose they had liquidated some of their obligations. Senator BURTON. That is, they are not sailors and soldiers and their pay is not comparable, and they are usually transferred to fairly nearby areas and their rates of pay are comparable to what they were before, and certainly comparable to those men who were frozen in and by whose side they work? Mr. McNUTT. That is right. Senator KILGORE. Isn't it a fact that a man might have to go into an area where he couldn't take his family with him? Mr. McNUTT. Of course, there are cases of that kind. The one thing that has been disturbing has been our inability to pay transportation where we have had to take workers a considerable distance. Senator KILGORE. That is provided for in this bill. Mr. McNUTT. I think that is in the bill now. Senator AUSTIN. Yes; it is in the bill. Mr. McNUTT. That has been really quite difficult. Do you realize that there have been over 4,000,000 migrations in this country in connection with this war effort? Senator AUSTIN. Do you mean families? Mr. McNUTT. Four million workers. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McNutt, have you ever had anybody compare the migration during the depression with the migration now? Mr. McNUTT. I don't know that such a comparison has been made, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions? Senator O'MAHONEY. Mr. Patterson testified yesterday that the ceiling system had failed, and he cited an instance in Newark, I think. Do you care to make any comment on your experience with the ceiling system? Mr. McNUTT. It has been harder in some places to get acceptance than in others. If I were given the legal authority to impose the ceilings, it would make it much easier. On the other hand, Allentown took this program, got a great deal of advertising out of itAllentown is really an industrial center. They have taken this program and done a fine job. Senator KILGORE. On voluntary basis? Mr. McNUTT. Yes. Newark has been difficult, I realize that. That doesn't mean the ceiling has failed. Actually, as far as most of us are concerned, we hear the bad news; the good news takes care of itself. They don't bring in the good news; they only bring it in where we have had trouble. Newark has had some trouble. Senator O'MAHONEY. That is what I would like to get into the record; that is, the good news, if there is any, with respect to inventories of available manpower and the utilization of it by way of the operation of these management-labor committees. I would like to have you also talk with us, if you will, about the experience of those management and labor committees. You have had several sessions, have you not? Mr. McNUTT. Yes. Senator O'MAHONEY. Where are the meetings of the National Management and Labor Committee held? Mr. McNUTT. They are here. Senator O'MAHONEY. How many of those meetings have been held? Mr. McNUTT. They meet once every 2 weeks regularly. That is a scheduled meeting. Senator O'MAHONEY. For how long a period? Mr. McNUTT. They meet for a day. Senator O'MAHONEY. For how long a period have these meetings been going on? Mr. McNUTT. Almost 2 years and a half. Senator O'MAHONEY. Has there been any disagreement Mr. McNUTT. The only one disagreement that was not resolved was on 48 hours in steel. Senator O'MAHONEY. Every other disagreement has been resolved? Mr. McNUTT. Have been resolved in that committee. Senator O'MAHONEY. How many management-labor committees do you have around the country? Mr. McNUTT. Approximately 360. We have one in every labor market area, actually. Senator O'MAHONEY. Are they made up in the same general manner? Mr. McNUTT. Same general manner. Senator O'MAHONEY. Organized labor and organized management? Mr. McNUTT. That is right. Not necessarily organized management, and it may be in that community the labor isn't organized. But they are selected by management and by labor. That is, they are not hand-picked. Senator O'MAHONEY. They are not selected by the War Manpower Commission? Mr. McNUTT. They are selected by those whom they represent. Senator O'MAHONEY. What has been their experience with respect to reaching a common agreement as to the problems before them? Mr. McNUTT. I say, on the whole, the record has been remarkable. There have been places, of course, where it has not been successful, and it would be helpful if you had some tool where, voluntary methods failing, you could go in and really get the job done. That is what you want to do; that is what we are after. I would rather do it the voluntary way, but if in the immediate future we need an additional tool, then, I should like very much to have it. Senator O'MAHONEY. Now, you speak of only one problem upon which there was not agreement on the national level. Mr. McNUTT. That is right. Senator O'MAHONEY. What about in the regional areas? What is the proportion of agreement? Mr. McNUTT. I can't answer that, but on the whole they have been able to resolve their own difficulties at the local level. Senator O'MAHONEY. In other words, it has worked satisfactorily? Mr. McNUTT. It has worked satisfactorily. As I mentioned at the outset, there are not very many good things that come out of war, but if there are any good things that come out of war this is one of them. Senator O'MAHONEY. In other words, you think this is good for future operations of cooperation between management and labor to get the job done? Mr. McNUTT. Yes, and I have already talked to the committee at the national level with that in view, thinking that they might want a set-up permanently where they can work together. Here are the tops of all the organizations. It would be a fine thing in the post-war period if they could sit down at the table and resolve their difficulties without getting into trouble. Senator O'MAHONEY. Much has been said during these hearings about the alleged flexibility of this bill, which starts out, by the way, with a freeze. It suggests to my mind a question, and that is whether this system you have just described does not offer us the degree of flexibility that we need rather than the proposal which would introduce a degree of rigidity. Mr. McNUTT. The last experience would so indicate, but I still get back to the point, with the war as it is today, I will join with the others in saying that I am unwilling to take a chance. Senator KILGORE. If Congress were to pass the necessary law for the War Manpower Commission, as it is, to intervene and establish ceilings, including Government installations themselves, and Selective Service to operate at full extent from 18 to 45, wouldn't that constitute a much more flexible method than the problem of going through the district courts, circuit courts, and finally to the Supreme Court on constitutionality on enforcement by fines and jail sentences? Mr. McNUTT. It might, but once again, to be realistic, the Senate has before it a House bill which was passed by the House, and there has been a demand for speedy action on the part of the Army and Navy and Commander in Chief. Senator KILGORE. That bill has to be amended, which means it has to go back to the House for action. Mr. McNUTT. There are certain amendments that I have supported as vigorously as I know how. Senator AUSTIN. I would like to ask some questions specifically regarding the experiment at Allentown, Pa. Mr. McNUTT. Senator, actually it was not an experiment. It Mr. McNUTT. If you will give me a moment I can check that. has about that. Of those, 57,000 are in munitions. Estimated employment in less essential industries is 27,000. Senator AUSTIN. Then, the immediate manpower requirements in this area are 2,400, is it not? I think these figures came from you. Mr. McNUTT. They have met their immediate requirement up there. Senator AUSTIN. That is what I am trying to test out. The Allentown program has been in effect for about 4 weeks, hasn't it? Mr. McNUTT. May I go back and give you the history? All that Allentown did was to take the program that we had for the Nation and get into it a little bit earlier than anybody else and to move very rapidly with it and to get proper distribution of the news all over the country. What Allentown has done was to take this five-point program which we followed. I will read it: WAR MANPOWER COMMISSION PROGRAM FOR MEETING THE CURRENT MANPOWER EMERGENCY 1. Conduct immediate manpower inventories in less essential industries recording for each establishment by occupation the number of workers now employed. 2. To obtain the cooperation of industry and labor in a public appeal for support of the program, stressing the seriousness of the situation and asking the cooperation of employers, workers, and the public generally. 3. As the manpower inventories are completed, proceed with the application of the selective ceilings to individual less essential establishments. These ceilings which will be determined by review of the establishments' manpower inventory against the job openings in urgent war production will require by a specified date the reduction of male employment in particular occupations in the establishment to a stated level. 4. Will refer workers made available from less essential activities by the program only to job openings in urgent war production in establishments which are now and will continue making the most effective utilization possible of their currently employed work force. Establishments which reject without good cause workers referred to them under this program will not be permitted further referrals. 5. Will require and take every lawful measure to secure prompt and complete compliance with our determinations under this program. The combined enforcement powers of the War Manpower Commission and all other governmental agencies will be brought to bear on noncomplying establishments. This is a five-point War Manpower Commission program which aims to bring into play every possible community force and manpower resource to man the must plants providing the combat materials desperately needed in this supreme hour of the war. It has the wholehearted endorsement of the procurement agencies, and the War Production Board, through its regional director, 3. Griffith Boardman. It is proposed for application in all critical labor market areas in War Manpower Commission, region III, covering Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware. 1. We will conduct immediately manpower inventories in less-essential industries, recording for each establishment by occupation the number of workers now employed. These inventories will reveal the firms which are currently employing the kind of male workers now urgently required by plants turning out the stuff upon which the fate of this whole war depends. We will use these inventories as a basis for determining the number of male workers by occupation who will have to be withdrawn from specific less essential establishments to plug the empty work stations in urgent war production. 2. We ask that industry and labor join us in a public appeal in cooperation with other Government agencies again stressing the seriousness of the situation and asking the cooperation of employers, workers, and the public generally in assuring that the seriousness of the appeal for critically needed manpower is clearly recognized and that every available medium is used to make it understood by all. The appeal will specify the kinds of workers needed, and declare that the sole remaining source of such labor is in less essential activities. The appeal will afford employers and workers in less essential activities the opportunity to act voluntarily and to consider deeply whether at this critical stage of the war they can afford not to make the sacrifices necessary to supply this manpower for urgent war production when and where needed. It will urge workers who are qualified for the job openings specified in the appeal to seek transfer to those jobs through the local United States Employment Office. It will urge less essential employers who have such workers in their employ to arrange with the local office for interviewing them so that they may be referred to urgent production. 3. The needs in must and urgent war production cannot however depend on voluntary efforts alone. Therefore, as manpower inventories are completed, we will proceed with the application of selective ceilings to individual less essential establishments. These ceilings, which will be determined by review of the establishment's manpower inventory against the job openings in urgent war production, will require by a specified date the reduction of male employment in particular Occupations in the establishment to a stated level. In setting such ceilings, we will give due consideration to the establishment's response to the public appeal, as well as any special circumstances which would create undue hardship of a |