Mr. WALKER. Many States are very pleased with the area agencies and the work they are doing. Some States are having difficulty so that my observations will have to be from a personal point of view.

Certainly the area agency concept is a good one. The idea that local planning and coordination can be done at the local level where the people are and where the services have been identified by locals is good. If there is a serious weakness in the strategy it is that the responsibilities which have been given to the area agencies are far in excess of their resources to do that job with the limited administrative money that they have.

Ms. GERRARD. May I add a point, sir?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Please.

Ms. GERRARD. The section of Mr. Walker's testimony on page 2 where he refers to the particular problem of rural States, speaking about West Virginia agencies on aging in the 11 parts of the State. We are very pleased with those.

We cannot afford to extend the area agencies for the next few years. We simply don't have the Administrative money. Projects in these parts of the States which are the neediest low income section are bound by a 75-25 matching instead of a 90-10.

We would hope that the legislation could be changed to authorize a State agency on aging to assign a staff person to these areas to develop an area plans, have an advisory council in preparation for an area agency so that the matching in these areas of the State could be 90-10 also.

Mr. BRADEMAS. To turn to another point on which you touch, Mr. Walker, you made passing reference to revenue sharing. I think you are aware of the GAO report that was commissioned by Congressman Pepper of Florida that showed us that only two-tenths of 1 percent of the moneys administered by localities had gone toward programs that specifically benefited the elders.

I would be interested in any observation you want to give us about how revenue sharing, if the program is continued, could be made more responsive to the needs of the elderly and perhaps tell us if there is any role that either the area agencies or the State agencies can play in this respect.

Mr. WALKER. One reason that revenue sharing has not reached programs for older people is because local government is uncertain about the future of revenue sharing and is reluctant to start service programs for which they feel funds may be terminated by the Federal Government and they will be left with the responsibility for funding

them.

If there was some assurance that revenue sharing would continue, I think we would be able to persuade them to put a fair portion of those funds into program for the elderly. We have made contact with local government and with the local units on aging in the area agencies urging them to ask for some of this money. As you know, it has had limited success.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Just one other question.

I suggested earlier that I am apprehensive that President Ford will when he comes up with his message on deferrals and rescisions, go after programs to benefit the elderly with a real hatchet.

I wonder in this respect if you can tell us from your knowledge if

any 1975 nutrition funds for the elderly have yet been released to the 'States?

Mr. WALKER. No, they aren't.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I hope that is not a harbinger of bad news. I think I am right in saying that members of the Committee on Agriculture are working to block the proposed increase in the cost of food stamps for the elderly as well as for other persons who may qualify for them. Thank you very much.

The gentleman from Vermont.

Mr. JEFFORDS. In talking about the foster grandparents program, you seem to express some concern about its being administered by ACTION.

Do you think it has suffered at all by being under ACTION rather than being handled by a specific aging agency?

Mr. WALKER. The ACTION agency regards the program as a volunteer program. The income that the foster grandparents receive is a stipend. I think, in fact, it is an employment program in a commendable service way.

It is providing people an opportunity not only to provide service but to earn money. Under the ACTION guidelines they may be paid only $1.60 an hour, which is a stipend.

Under other programs, senior aid programs under the Department of Labor, they can earn up to $2.45, $2.50 an hour.

Ms. GERRARD. Because it is considered a volunteer program the foster grandparents do not qualify then for having earned enough money under social security to qualify later for higher social security benefits.

We have in our foster grandparent program in West Virginia older people who for whatever reason have not had covered employment long enough to qualify for social security. If they were able to be considered with this CETA wage, then upon retirement they would be able to draw on social security.

Now, some of them are going to be forced to get just SSI.

Mr. JEFFORDS. Is this a change that could be brought about under the legislation for ACTION or is it necessary to transfer the jurisdiction of the program?

Ms. GERRARD. I think it is the attitude of the whole agency looking upon people as volunteers.

Speaking for a few of the States anyway we don't find that agency responsive. They don't have any tie-in really with the overall aging program in the States.

Mr. JEFFORDS. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. The gentleman from Washington, the ranking member of the subcommitteee.

Mr. MEEDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate very much your testimony.

I would like to ask some questions about what you found out in the various States with regard to revenue sharing in the past.

Let me preface my remarks by saying in my own State of Washington, for instance, cities and counties have been told by the Attorney General that they do not have the authority to establish and use revenue sharing funds for senior citizens centers, for RSVP programs, many of the things that are done under the Older Americans Act.

Actually they have gotten around this by funneling it through their park and recreation departments, but it is really subterfuge.

Are there other States in which a similar situation has occurred to your knowledge?

Mr. WALKER. To my knowledge, I don't know.

Mr. HENDRICK. I can speak for the State of New Hampshire. Due to our particular structure of government and the dependence on the town for basically the provision of public services and education and the social services being vested largely with the county and State, we have little likelihood of revenue sharing ever being accomplished on a town-by-town basis at the local level of government.

Without revenue sharing being deposited into the general funds of the community and then by a specific item in the budgetary warrant being appropriated from the general funds back to the program it is a very complicated process.

I have been on our town budget committee and then at the county level there is some evidence of revenue sharing toward social programs in support of aging programs. The large support comes from the level of State government.

Mr. MEEDS. Are you aware of what percent of the revenue funds both local and State level are being used in New Hampshire for the older Americans?

Mr. WALKER. It would be less than 1 percent.

Mr. MEEDS. Could you respond to that same question for West Virginia?

Ms. GERRARD. The Governor's office just made a study. When I called to ask about getting a copy they kind of laughed. They said "Well, we came in next to last." I said, "What came in last?" They said, "Maybe miners with leprosy or something."

In other words, no attention has been paid to it and we are very concerned.

However, for example, in one of our neediest most rural counties the county court gave the nutrition program $5,000 out of revenue sharing because they said they could see the program, they could see it was serving their people.

We have been encouraging those county commissioners to communicate with others. We are hoping there can be a breakthrough but we have a long way to go.

Mr. MEEDS. $5,000 I noticed seemed significant to you.

Mr. GERRARD. In Mingo County, W. Va., that is a lot of money. Mr. MEEDS. Thank you.

You can respond.

Mr. WALKER. It would be less than 1 percent for Maryland.

Mr. MEEDS. Less than 1 percent?

Mr. WALKER. Substantially so.

Mr. MEEDS. Have you done any study of all the States in an effort to determine what proportion of revenue sharing is being utilized across the United States?

Mr. WALKER. I think Dr. Fleming reported two-tenths of 1 per

cent.

Mr. MEEDS. Two-tenths?

Mr. WALKER. I believe that was the figure. I will have to check that but it was very small.

Mr. MEEDS. Across the whole Nation?

Mr. WALKER. Across the whole Nation.

Mr. MEEDS. I suppose we can get that information from Dr. Flemming.

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. MEEDS. Now, I noticed you also expressed some concern in your statement that you are apprehensive that the President might call for rescission on some of these nutrition programs.

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MEEDS. Can you enlighten us a little more on that? What have you heard to give you this concern?

Mr. WALKER. Well, we frequently talk to Federal and local people and we don't have precise information that that is going to happen. We understand that there is a rescission message that will be coming down from the White House that $25 million of the $125 million which has been appropriated for nutrition will be a part of the money which is to be held back or impounded.

Mr. MEEDS. The $25 million which was originally carried over? Mr. WALKER. No, which has been appropriated for fiscal 1975. Mr. MEEDS. To my recollection we appropriated $125 million for fiscal 1975 but the President had impounded or had failed to spend $25 million from the previous fiscal year. Is that not correct?

Mr. WALKER. No. The budget for the previous 2 years was $100 million.

Mr. MEEDS Was it all spent?

Mr. WALKER. We are still operating with the fiscal 1974 funds in fiscal year 1975. The authorization level for fiscal 1975 was $150 million. The appropriation was $125 million. We understand that the $25 million-in other words, it is going to be held at the fiscal 1973 and 1974 level.

Ms. GERRARD. Which is tolerable.

Mr. MEEDS. It is criminal, isn't it?

Mr. WALKER. It is a reduction in the program.
Mr. MEEDS. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. If the gentleman will yield, I might simply say that it is my own intention on Monday, February 3, at the outset of these hearings on this subject to have a statement prepared with respect to the impact of the President's budget on aging programs as well as other domestic programs because if what I have seen or heard intimated is true, there is going to be a real mean fight between the President of the United States and this Congress and I know which side I am going to be on.

The Chair is pleased to welcome a new member of the subcommittee, a new Member from South Dakota, Mr. Pressler.

Mr. PRESSLER. If I could I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding delivery of some of these programs in rural areas and Indian reservations.

Is any one of you equipped to touch on that subject?

Ms. GERRARD. Our programs are primarily rural. The big problem which you identify immediately is transportation. We have people who are living in very isolated areas where the services are very far from them.

You have the problem of bringing the people to the services or the services to the people.

Next to transportation of course is the whole question of income. You simply don't have enough money in those communities to support some of the needed services. We are concerned in West Virginia and I have seen figures to show that it would be the same in South Dakota, that our people simply are not able to take advantage of some of the Federal programs for which they are paying.

For example, when our people are charged for medicare services and yet there are no home health care services or other programs for them, they are in effect being charged for the rest of the country. So that we feel that in many ways some of these programs have to come in through a national health service program or some other system where our rural people are not neglected and left in isolation.

Mr. PRESSLER. In my constituency there are a lot of little towns, in the town I am from, Humbolt, a small town of 300 or 400, there are few who really know or take advantage of the programs. I think that is probably true throughout the First District of South Dakota. I am sure it is a matter of transportation and communications.

Mr. WALKER. Of course, this is one of the big advantages we have now where we do have area agencies because it is more difficult to reach these small communities from a central office. You are more apt to go to the county seat whereas an area agency operating in a community is much more likely to be able to get these people or be aware of other services available to them. This is one reason why I think it is so important to change the act to allow us also in rural areas to have a representative of the central office stationed in a rural area temporarily until they can afford an area agency on aging because you don't have the skilled people very often in these communities, the people with skills have left.

Mr. HENDRICK. New Hampshire is basically a rural State. We have mounted very effective transportation projects on a demand basis where we go into our smaller community and are able to transport the elderly into community centers to receive services and return them home.

We have budgeted 30 percent of a half million dollars of service moneys into this program but we are deeply concerned about the growth of the program and the termination at the end of the third year, of where we will get continuing revenues and sources of funding for the operation of these programs. It is understood by us that under section 147 (a), I believe it is, of the Department of Transportation Act there may be considered a source of demonstration funding for this type of rural transportation.

If that comes about and we are working closely with the New Hampshire Transportation Authority to see that this comes about, we may be able to secure through interagency cooperation that degree of permanent funding that would in a sense bring into being a demand transport system for those people who live in rural isolation.

Likewise, this also applies to urban areas where we have equal concern about those people who are living in urban centers. Mr. PRESSLER. What kind of transportation?

Mr. HENDRICK. These are minibuses. Most of them are either station wagons or Dodge vans. They are dispatched, a toll-free telephone