to change time-honored methods and structures in order to be effective. We should not fear to do so.

In conclusion, I would like to say the problem of delinquency is a major issue of our time. The day is gone when each individual in each community could be expected to solve his own problem. Our people move frequently and they move far, taking their problems with them. The time has come for combined efforts in defeating delinquency. In this effort, the Federal Government is needed as a leader as well as an enabler. I am glad that your chairman has introduced. legislation to this end and that your committee is assessing the national need. I urge, ladies and gentlemen, that this legislation be reported favorably to the Congress. I hope and I pray it will become the law. Now, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to read a statement from Gov. Stephen McNichols, of Colorado.

I regret that I cannot appear to be heard on H.R. 7178.

I heartily support H.R. 7178 and urge you to pass it. Juvenile delinquency is a national as well as a local and State problem. States and localities have a heavy financial investment in youth. I have learned that local communities alone cannot finance preventional and treatment programs and that local, State, and Federal effort must be combined in finding a solution.

As important as the dollars involved is the leadership stimulation that the bill calls for. For the first time all levels of government beginning with the President will be engaged together in the attack on this matter. The bill emphasizes coordination of the Federal agencies and this will be an excellent example to the States in mobilizing all of their pertinent resources for planning and action. This is a field in which much operational experimentation needs to be done. The bill provides for development of such experimentation, using not only Federal levels of government but also the entire range of services that all need. These include public and private agency programs, child welfare agencies, law-enforcement agencies, courts, detention, medical, recreational, and other

similar activities.

The Juvenile Delinquency Committee of the Governors' Conference, which I represent as chairman, has not considered this bill specifically. However, speaking for them, I can report that the committee believes, with you, that a massive national effort is required to deal with the problem. Our deliberations as a committee are continuing and we pledge full cooperation between the Governors and the Federal agencies on all programs in this field that are ultimately determined by the Congress to be sound. For myself as Governor of Colorado, and out of my experience and the needs of my people, I urge you to take positive action on this particular bill.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. I am just back from the conference of Governors and Governor McNichols asked me first to appear and then to present his statement.

Mrs. GREEN. Thank you very, very much, Governor Lawrence, for the information you have given to the committee and also for the very effective way in which you have presented these facts.

As you were speaking, I thought that if we had this kind of understanding of our juvenile problems, this kind of leadership in every State and the willingness of a leader such as yourself to stimulate and encourage public support, I am sure the job that we have as Members of the Congress would be much, much easier in enacting such legislation.

Governor LAWRENCE. Thank you very much, Mrs. Green. I would like to just reemphasize, again, part of what my written statement said. I think one of the places where we are lax is in the various agencies we have set up. We have the facilities in this country. I think a great deal of this is in the home. If the parents in America would have their youngsters go to the YMCA, go to the Boys Club,

the Catholic Lyceum and to the YMCA, to the many many agencies that there are instead of wasting their lives looking at television and seeing a lot of wild cowboys killing people, I think a great step would be made. I am a director of the YMCA in the Pittsburgh area and have been active in this kind of work for many, many years, but I say that, basically, parents do not send their children to these available facilities which would keep their young minds active and off of things that otherwise get them into crime.

Now any questions you may have on any of our programs our Deputy Director of Public Welfare and I will be happy to answer. Mrs. GREEN. We are delighted to have Mr. Lourie here. We have met him before.

What is the legal definition of a juvenile delinquent in Pennsylvania?

Mr. LOURIE. I think our definition is similar to the definitions that you get in most juvenile courts. It represents acts which are either against the law or against the best interests of the child.

Mrs. GREEN. I was thinking in terms of age.

Mr. LOURIE. In terms of age it is 18.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you have any views on having this age limit, and what would be your view if there were an attempt made in Pennsylvania to set it at 16?

Governor LAWRENCE. I do not know. Age is sort of a relative thing. I would like to apply that to myself. Usually they do not have Governors 72 years old, so therefore, I like it to be flexible. I think it depends a good bit on the child's mind, how he has developed. Some are still childish at 21. I have seen a good many men who are childish.

Mr. LOURIE. Most of the juvenile courts of our own State have provisions for dealing with felonies and with serious crimes by remanding from the juvenile court over to the adult court; therefore, we see no particular point in changing the age limit. As a matter of fact, my own point of view and the point of view of our department has been that lowering of the age limit produces a problem or difficulty in rehabilitation, because when you begin to use the adult prisons system it does not have the same potential for rehabilitation or it does not have the same potential at this moment for rehabilitation. We would like to see all the adult prisons begin to develop the same kind of atmosphere for helping as our youth institutions do and for that reason we would hesitate to lower the age limit and put 16-yearolds into adult prisons.

Mrs. GREEN. In Pennsylvania, how long have you had the program to which you refer for training of police officers who deal primarily with these delinquents?

Mr. LOURIE. Just about 2 years.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you know how many States have this kind of a program?

Mr. LOURIE. I do not, offhand. I know three or four that have worked in this field.

I understand it is 12.

Mrs. GREEN. We have with us on the subcommittee this morning Congressman Elmer Holland from Pennsylvania. With the consent of the other members of the subcommittee I will yield the floor to him for any special questions he might wish to direct to the Governor.

Mr. HOLLAND. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

I want to take this opportunity to commend our great Governor of Pennsylvania for making a very fine presentation. I think he remembers that I was on one of the committees that investigated Morganza and he has always given us his entire support and such as was within his power to improve the juvenile court system and to deal with our juvenile deliquency problem and I am glad to hear of the progress we are still making in Pennsylvania because I know it is one of his private peeves that we have neglected the children. I want to thank Governor Lawrence for coming down. Now, Madam Chairman, if you will excuse me I have some other committees to attend. Mrs. GREEN. Before you leave, is Morganza the institution in Philadelphia? Penal institution?

Mr. HOLLAND. No, that is in Allegheny County.

Mrs. GREEN. I have visited these institutions and I visited one of your penal institutions for the juveniles in Philadelphia as well as the beautiful detention home that you have in Philadelphia.

Thank you, Congressman Holland, for taking time out as a member of the full committee to sit with the subcommittee.

Congressman Giaimo?

Mr. GIAIMO. Governor Lawrence, I would like to get your opinion as a representative of the State of Pennsylvania and the United States. Now we are just getting into this field. This field deals with the training of personnel in demonstration projects and evaluation and this legislation by itself certainly is not going to rid us of the problem of juvenile delinquency. It would be a step by the Federal Government into the field which heretofore has probably been solely under the control and handling of the States. But what do you envision in the future in this broad attack on this problem embracing the economic, sociological, religious, and family problems. What do you envision the future role of the Federal Government is going to be? Now you have mentioned that you were looking at the Federal Government as the leader. Is that what we ultimately are hoping for? Is this going to be the type of situation where the Federal Government will try to take over this problem of curbing juvenile deliquency or is it ultimately going to remain a State problem? This is the situation that confronts me and its disturbs me at the present time because I am not quite sure of what our goals are. As to what the relative role of the Federal Government and the State should be, not just in regard to this specific bill but in regard to the whole problem.

Governor LAWRENCE. Well, I think, as I stated in my written remarks, the Federal Government should take the leadership through the Department of Justice and the other agencies and through the Health, Education, and Welfare Department in organizing and bringing together all of the various States. It eventually will go to the local communities in its final analysis as to the execution of what is to be done. But the lines of communication today are so simple. We leave San Francisco and are in Baltimore in 411⁄2 hours. And, as with automobiles, time just moves. There are no State lines and things of that kind and I believe with the Federal Government taking the leadership and fusing the 50 States together on this problem we can get somewhere. It should not be piecemeal. Pennsylvania is

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doing one kind of job, and Ohio another and Indiana another. We ought to take this problem seriously just like any other problem, whether it be agriculture or industry or whatever it is. This is a great problem and it is an expensive problem and if we can divert these youngsters into cleaner activities and develop cleaner minds, we can save money from the standpoint of law enforcement and things of that sort and in providing institutions to care for them. If we can do it in this fashion, in the long run it will not cost the Government a great deal of money. I think it is a great experiment and I point out, too, there is not much money involved in Representative Green's bill. We in Pennsylvania are spending half that much ourselves now on this particular problem, so I believe with real leadership we could do this. I think the Attorney General we have today is enthusiastic and could take over leadership in a program of this kind that would get into every echelon from the top all the way down to the township policeman the idea that one of the big jobs is to watch these young people and steer them in the right direction and to use these facilities and these institutions I mentioned and these private agencies particularly, and so forth, and get the youngster interested in things of that kind. I think then we can do a job.

It is an alarming situation that we find. Of course, a great deal is due to broken homes, divorces, so forth and so on. It is hard to get at, but we have not really attacked it in the past. I think it will take a major effort at every level of government to do it. I think this bill will put us on the right track to bring that about.

Mr. GIAIMO. Would we be opening ourselves up to a charge of Federal intervention in State's rights, because if the Federal Government ultimately gets into this field it is going to be concerning itself with welfare problems in the State, with law enforcement, and with the judicial system that deals with these problems? Would we then be opening ourselves up to the charge of Federal intervention in State's rights?

Governor LAWRENCE. I do not think so. That has been raised time and again, but where isn't the Federal Government helping today? In almost every field we do not object to them helping, such as agriculture, and we do not object to them helping in many directions, and why should they not help in a field like this that is so vital to the future of this country?

Mr. QUIE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. GIAIMO. I yield.

Mr. QUIE. Thank you. Governor, yesterday Secretary Ribicoff was before us and in his testimony there were some very pertinent facts and one of the statements was that due to urbanization there is greater delinquency now than in the past and that there is delinquency in the rural area, but there are three or four times that delinquency occurring in the cities and urban areas than in the rural areas. From my knowledge of the rural areas one of the reasons why juvenile delinquency is increasing out there is the urbanization of rural areas which has the same effect it has in the cities. The Secretary also points out that with minority groups before 1930 the delinquency problem was mainly the problem of the American-born child of foreign parentage and now it is different, and is with the new migrant, the urban-drifting Negro, Mexican, and Puerto Rican, and he points out that 10 percent of the

population of America are Negroes yet they contribute nearly twice to the delinquency rate than do the whites. Now this isn't pointing a finger at the racial group. I think it is the effect of urbanization and this happens to be the group that is now drifting and moving and looking for equality and opportunities for employment. Now my question to you is this: What is the State of Pennsylvania doing, not just to correct it, as you are doing in your institutions, subsidizing police officers, but what are you doing really to prevent this? You mentioned the parents, but a State can't change the parents. But something must be done and I was wondering if you could give me some ideas on that?

Governor LAWRENCE. Well the State could affect the parents, but maybe not directly as State officers. I am speaking of affecting parents through the church and various other organizations, through the leadership of the State, and they could call upon the parents and through these various agencies and be more strict in the handling of the problem and in getting their youngsters to go to these facilities that are available, these great institutions that are kept up at great expense and with contributions from the people.

În Pennsylvania, we made a great many forward steps in lightening the burden of the colored people particularly.

We have an FEPC Commission in the State to give them better opportunities for employment, that is, the heads of the families, so they can in turn provide opportunities to their youngsters to go to school and keep them in school. There have been a great number of dropouts among colored children in the public schools, dropping out after a few years of school, and many of them because the parents did not have employment. Maybe they can get employment selling papers or doing something to bring some little money into the home. We have to raise the level of those people. We are doing it, I think, through housing, through tearing down a lot of the slums in the cities and in their place putting up cleaner homes. We have done that in all of this public housing. It is very noticeable in Pittsburgh where we formerly had old shacks and we now have these people living in very nice presentable homes and I think that raises the standard of their thinking.

I think, through those things, we are improving the situation. The percentage is high, but it is due, I think, in a great measure to the way these people have been handled in the past. If they are given the opportunities for education that they should have had, and if they avail themselves of it, and some of them have not availed themselves of it, I think the condition of the youngster would be much better and the percentage of delinquency among them would be much lower.

Mr. QUIE. The effect of the FEPC law should be to give them greater motivation to go to school because their opportunities for employment are better?

Governor LAWRENCE. I said exactly that last night in a speech to the NAACP in Philadelphia. I said that very thing. It gives them an incentive to move on or to stay in school because here is a job in some particular field that they have been denied for years, but it is going to be open to them. So therefore, they say "I will stay in school and I can get a job like Mr. Jones or Mr. Brown."