Mr. QUIE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Yes.

Mr. QUIE. Except for your partisan remark, and I could point out State legislatures that are controlled by the other party, that are negligent in their duties; I would agree wholeheartedly, I come from a rural area in Minnesota, but I am of the opinion, that the legislatures should from time to time be reapportioned. There are more people in the city areas and they have problems that we do not have to the same extent out in the rural areas, and I think that should be reflected in the legislature, but if we assume State responsibility in the Federal legislation, then legislatures will have a perfect excuse not to assume it on a State level.

What has happened after World War II in education, I think, is spectacular when we see what the local and State governments have done. We were in a deplorable state after World War II but I think we ought to give State and local governments a pat on the back on what they have done since then.

If you look at the Federal Government, we do not have such a wonderful record either. If it is important that the Federal Government should assist in these elementary and secondary schools I doubt that our record looks good because we have not done much in this way. I would imagine that if we should turn over some of our responsibility on a Federal level to some international government, we would act the same way that the State legislatures do if we don't already.

Mr. GIAIMO. I would like to ask the gentleman if he intends to ask a question?

Mr. QUIE. No. My question is the same as the gentleman from Indiana.

Mr. GIAIMO. I would like to say this: Forgetting for the moment the partisanship and who controls the State legislature and who does not, the point is whether we are speaking of juvenile delinquency or education; in many other areas concerning the youth of this country we find ourselves always in the position that we could do more if we had more money, and we could do more if we had trained personnel, and if we had specialized types of people and facilities and so forth. Yet nothing seems to be done, or nothing substantial seems to be done, and therefore should it not be the concern of this Government, the Federal Government, to look into the problem and to do what it can.

Mr. BROWNELL. I agree, and on that I have an answer, but I have two or three questions, I think, that have been directed this way, and I want to try to answer them.

First, to answer yours, one of the provisions of this bill, which I thought was good, was the fact that it does provide for incentives, and provisions for training additional personnel, which I like. It probably needs to be done on a larger scale than is proposed here, but they can do it again.

Secondly, when it comes to this question which you raised, about our legislatures, I am happy to report that the citizens of the State of Michigan voted to have a constitutional convention, and I am very hopeful that the people, at that constitutional convention, will face up to some of these problems which exist. And the point that both

of you made with reference to the failure on the part of many people in communities in our States to recognize the changes that are taking place in urbanization, I think, is fairly common and understandable. If you have not lived in a community and faced up to these problems, you just do not realize how they have grown, and in a smaller community, when you have a problem, you can get the people together to bring home to them how these problems affect them, and you can get them to take action. I worked on that kind of a basis, as superintendent, for a long time, but when you get into a city where you have 2 million people, you cannot operate on that same basis and the problems arise and many people in the community just do not realize the problems are there because they do not travel in that area of the city. That is why we have to handle some of these problems in a different way than you did when we used to go to the Hampton town meeting, and that sort of thing.

Mr. GIAIMO. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Mrs. GREEN. Dr. Brownell, up until about 5 minutes ago I was getting ready to welcome you to The New Frontier!

I am reluctant to have the record stand for the last few minutes that the only need for this legislation or some other legislation is because the States have not acted.

It seems to me this does not present the full picture or an accurate picture.

On this problem of personnel, I think it might be a waste of money if every State decided that it was going to train police officers, or set up a graduate school for social workers or a special school for probation officers, and so on and so forth.

If the Federal Government takes the initative, and leadership and responsibility, it seems to me we can accomplish our objectives in a much more economical way.

The same applies in research and demonstration projects.

If there is Federal leadership and Federal coordination, one State can benefit by the results or the information that was learned. With Federal responsibility, we would have less duplication and would do it much better, and at a lower tax cost.

Would you comment on that?

Mr. BROWNELL. Yes, I will. I would say that is possible, that that could be done, but not inevitable that it will be done.

There are a great many things now where one part of the Federal Government does not know what the other part of the Federal Government is doing and where the people out in the field do not know what the resources are here, because they are so scattered.

I have said on many occasions before some congressional committees elsewhere, that if we could only get the various Federal Agencies that have anything to do with education to work through the Office of Education then our people would know where to come, find out what the resources are, not the Office of Education, some one place, but the Federal Government is just such a maze, as far as most of the people out in the field are concerned, that many of the resources of the Federal Government are never used that could be used; so that is one reason I say it can be, but not always, that we have things in our Federal Government so segmented.

The second thing I want to point out is this: The superintendents and board members of 14 large cities, or of the 14 largest cities, have been working together now for the last 4 years on some of our common problems. Across State lines, and on a cooperative basis, we have been able to make far more progress by this sharing of responsibility, than under any structure that existed.

So, my only point is that I agree with you that by having some of these things helped by the Federal Government, that it is possible then for us to effect more efficiently all of the activities in the field, but it is not inevitable that it will be done, and that is why I said I think we ought to work through out existing agencies, rather than establishing some new agencies for these programs, and, secondly, to say I think it is perfectly possible, but not inevitable, that these things could be worked on a cooperative basis between the States if willing to do that, so I think the problem is that if all of us forget our partisanship and get busy on the job, and whatever our structure is, that we move to work on these programs in the field of juvenile delinquency and the prevention of juvenile deliquency with whatever resources we have-and I am perfectly willing to have the Federal Government, if they take the leadership, show how it can be done. Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Quie.

Mr. QUIE. No further questions.

Mrs. GREEN. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Brownell.

Mr. BROWNELL. Thank you very much for taking this time to allow me to present this statement.

Mrs. GREEN. The committee stands in recess until tomorrow morning, when the first witness will be the Attorney General, Mr. Kennedy. The meeting will be held in the caucus room.

(At 12:20 p.m. the committee recessed until 10 a.m., Wednesday, July 12, 1961.)

JUVENILE DELINQUENCY CONTROL ACT

WEDNESDAY, JULY 12, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON EDUCATION
OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m., in the caucus room, Old House Office Building, Hon. Edith Green (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Green, Giaimo, Brademas, and Ashbrook. Mrs. GREEN. The special subcommittee will come to order to resume the hearings on the administration bill in regard to prevention and control of juvenile delinquency, H.R. 8028, introduced by the gentleman from Indiana, Congressman John Brademas, and H.R. 7178.

In the room this morning we have a group of about 50 persons from the NEA's seminar. They were at the hearings Monday when the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare was our first witness. They have asked me to introduce the members of the committee.

On my immediate right is Congressman Giaimo, of Connecticut, a member of this subcommittee and also other subcommittees of the House Education and Labor Committee.

To his right is Congressman Brademas, of Indiana, one of the authors of the legislation that is before the subcommittee.

To the far right is Mr. Wray Smith, the education chief of staff of the committee.

To my left is Congressman John Ashbrook, of Ohio, who also is interested in this particular legislation.

This morning we are very, very fortunate indeed in having as our first witness the Attorney General of the United States.

Having introduced bills for 7 consecutive years, and having been interested in juvenile delinquency legislation, I am personally very pleased, Mr. Attorney General, about your own personal concern, your keen interest in this legislation, and also with the leadership that the Department of Justice has taken.

We are, as a subcommittee, much interested in the comments you wish to make on this legislation and the recommendations you have. So you may proceed as you wish, Mr. Attorney General.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT F. KENNEDY, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES

The ATTORNEY GENERAL. First, Mrs. Green, I want to tell you how much we appreciate all you have done in this field. For many years you have led the fight in attempting to get some action by the Federal

Government, some legislation passed in this area, and I hope that we meet with some success this year, but we wanted to express our appreciation to you and John Brademas and the other members of your committee for your efforts along this line.

I have a prepared statement which I would like to read if it meets with your approval.

Mrs. GREEN. Please proceed.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL. I am pleased to have this chance to urge approval of the proposed legislation, H.R. 7178.

Our failure as a nation to halt the rising tide of law violation among our young people is a matter of serious national concern. The committee should be especially commended for moving so quickly from the complex problems of education to the serious and grave problem of delinquency.

We have talked a lot about preventing delinquency, but have not acted with equal vigor. Action, rather than debate, is what we need now.

The facts are clear and threatening. We know that delinquency is growing faster every year, and at a rate faster than the youth population. We know that the big population jump in the age group from 10 to 21, is just ahead.

We have been warned repeatedly that our police, judicial, and correctional facilities are inadequate to effectively handle the increasing number of law violations.

Despite these facts, our new expenditures, at all levels of government, are mainly for bigger enforcement and correctional programs. I do not object at all to more police, improved court procedures, or more effective treatment facilities. Crime has to be depressed and communities must be protected. Offenders have to be controlled and reformed.

The better we can do these jobs, the more chance we have of keeping first offenders from becoming hardened criminals. If we were successful in this alone, we could cut our national crime costs enormously.

But we should be pouring as much, or even more, money, manpower, and imagination into preventing those early law violations that start criminal careers.

The principal business of the Justice Department is enforcement and prosecution. But in this matter, I feel we must take a broader view. We can go on building up our criminal justice system to deal with the end products of crime-producing conditions.

In fact, we have no choice as long as the number of offenders continues to increase. But we cannot win the battle by these means alone.

In the last 30 years, much has been learned about detecting conditions which lead young people into criminal activities. In many communities, large and small, throughout the United States, some effective action is being taken.

The knowledge and resources are scattered, however. The problem is to spread greater awareness of what is being done and what can be done; to increase the resources, particularly in trained personnel, for more effective action; and to bring such resources together in the same community. These tasks are the goals toward which this legislation will move us.