vide that measure to their community, police provide it, EMS provides it.

What we need is a strong input. We want to be able to tell the Federal Government this is what we need. Under the Nunn-Lugar, which sounded very good because, yes, we got the $300,000 worth of equipment and we were given some stuff that, one, we have never used; two, I don't know how to use; three, I don't want to use it; and, four, I'd like to give it back. They sent us things that work well for the military. They are not functional in the city. They don't work right. We need input into what we need. We'll tell you what we need and just help us get that.

We find that they design educational programs, and I would give a lot of credit to the people. I went to McClellan at some of the initial meetings, and the military and the civilian people, it was one step from physical violence.

When they started talking about acceptable losses, the civilian people went out of their minds, and they listened and they have changed their programs, but every one of those consortium programs should have an acid test. An acid test is what are they trained there that we can't get locally? Why is the National Fire Academy consistently and routinely overlooked, shot down, budgets cut, wage freezes, hiring freezes, to the point where they are inept, that they can't do their job? We have a system that we know how to turn on training in every State in this country overnight. Get us a program, get going, just fund us enough to get the instructors, and the government just says, no, we want to invent this; no, we want to invent that. You know, if I ask you what time it is, I don't want you to tell me how to build a clock. Just tell me what time it is. I'll know what to do after that. That's where we need the real help.

And apparently this interagency business is so strong and there are so many dollars involved that it just-we become secondary. The problem is a reason for some people's existence. If that is true, then get rid of those people and let me take those dollars and solve the problem that we have in the cities.

Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. In the interest of time, I'm going to go on to questions by the ranking member. I do want to welcome Congressman Chris Shays. We introduced you in absentia earlier, Chris, as Chairman of your subcommittee, and commented on all the good work you are doing in this area, too. Would you like to make a statement?

Mr. SHAYS. No, thank you.

Mrs. FOWLER. Mr. Traficant.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Very interesting panel, very competent panel, good to hear from you. I have a couple of questions. I'm not going to start with the chief, but I just want to say, secret chemical underwear? I'll get to that. I'll get to that. But I like people who tell it like it is; and I think both of you -from your respective professional disciplines, one is the public official elected, the other is a public servant certainly that performs a service. You've done that and I appreciate it.

I'd like to start with the distinguished councilwoman.
Ms. SIMANK. Thank you.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Can you tell me, and if you cannot directly, can you get back to me and I ask unanimous consent that the record be left open for this answer-whether or not Oklahoma City officials of any sort, including their police department or any other official, were notified prior to April 19th, 1995, of the following dynamics: That April 19th was an anniversary date of Waco, Texas, and the fiasco there; and in addition that one Richard Wayne Snell was on that date being executed in Arkansas for killing a state trooper, one Richard Wayne Snell, who had been arrested in the 80's for threatening to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah building? Do you know if there was any communication, any advance notice of the unusual circumstances surrounding the date, the 19th, and this information?

Ms. SIMANK. Honorable Congressman, to the best of my knowledge, my fire chief, my police chief, my city manager, my mayor and other distinguished council members that I serve with had no notification of what you have just talked of. I will, however, if you wish, go home and I will research this to see if I could in any way be incorrect, but my answer would be, no, we had no notice of these particular circumstances.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Thank you. As an old sheriff, there's no one better at the crime scene than local officials who understand the turf. The biggest problem that I have seen as a sheriff, the Federal agencies were usually investigating the fire chief and the sheriff and didn't communicate with us. I don't mean that in jest because as crazy as this sounds I think we need somebody in charge here, and I think when it comes to domestic terrorism, it should be the FBI, and I think we have to streamline it.

But in line with that, I have seen incidents where the ATF and FBI weren't talking; they didn't share information. Chief, just basically to the point, you are the head man in the country for your noble profession, and I could see why. You're a noble spokesman. Do you in Chicago, such a major, great American city, have regular communicative, coordinating meetings with Federal entities regarding any of the issues you've heard discussed here today?

Mr. EVERSOLE. Yes, sir. I am very pleased to tell you that we have built what I would consider an excellent liaison between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and ourselves. Through their assistance, we have lined up a-we're lucky enough in the city to have a level three surety lab which can test for us any known chemical or biological agent; and they have special agents assigned or 10 terrorist specialists in the city. We have cross-trained their people in the use of our chemical protective clothing and made that available to them. They have gone out of their way. I am very pleased with that relationship that has been built.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Having answered that now, in all candidness here, is that because of your efforts reaching out-I guess in asking that, from what you see nationally in your position, is this a model that is happening everywhere or is this an abstract thing that's happening in your area because of maybe the more advanced programs, apparatus you put in place?

Mr. EVERSOLE. Šir, in any type of a true relationship it takes two to tango, and they have come our way and we have gone their way, and it is a working relationship. That's very important to us. I do

not believe from my relationship with the International Fire Chiefs that that happens that well everywhere.

Obviously, they have an office in Chicago and we cooperate and participate very well together, more so than we ever have in the past. That's also true with our people working with ATF in the arson end of the business. I know that they work very closely there. I don't think that happens in a lot of little towns. Truthfully, I don't think a lot of cities if you said how do you call the FBI, they'd probably say, well, I don't know, maybe get the yellow pages and we'll try to find a number or they call 411 and ask information. Mr. TRAFICANT. You familiar with the Federal Protective Service? Mr. EVERSOLE. Yes, sir, somewhat.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Do you have communication with the Federal Protective Service?

Mr. EVERSOLE. Only on a very limited basis from my role.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Madam Councilwoman, are you familiar with the Federal Protective Service?

Ms. SIMANK. No, sir, I'm not.

Mr. TRAFICANT. That is the agency that is responsible for the protection and security of Federal buildings. I want you to know at the time of the disaster, the tragedy in Oklahoma City, there was one contract guard, not a full-time security, Federal Protective Service agent, responsible for the three Federal buildings in Oklahoma City.

Ms. SIMANK. I heard you say that earlier.

Mr. TRAFICANT. So having now said that and I'll conclude my questions. I'll have a couple for the record that I ask you to answer, but I want to ask you one last question. What advice do you have to other jurisdictions in America, just briefly, after having seen and witnessed the fiasco there? What advice do you have for us?

Ms. SIMANK. Help us get prepared. Take this money out of Washington, get it out to your cities and towns, to your local responders. Do not do not fall into their bickering and their turf wars and their divisions and departments that need to be budgeted, and I understand that. I understand that from my personal business that I'm in as well as my city council position with a city of approximately, you know, half a million people.

Do not do not let them bring that battle into Congress and battle for money when we're needing it out there. Get the training and equipment to us, and as the chief said, let-trust your cities and towns. They, if they're well trained, can handle disasters; and we need the Federal Government-we need you to assist us and assist means assist, not to come in and tell us how to do it.

I will tell you quite literally we were doing well in Oklahoma City that morning and all day long. It was 15 hours later, but when they started flying in and when the regional office came in from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, I hate to even say the words here I heard around the table, different Federal agencies and department heads cussing. We're trying to save lives out there on the street, and they're having their turf battles.

That needs to stop. We need to let our cities and towns be well trained and have those resources; and again, I'll just reiterate, my fire chief, Marrs, told me before I came up here, he said, Ann, if we could have all of that money out to the local cities and towns,

we would do so much better than spreading all that around to the 42 or 45 agencies. Help us with that.

Mr. TRAFICANT. I really appreciate this panel. Thank you for your candidness.

Mr. EVERSOLE. Congressman, if I may make one short comment. Your statement is very interesting about the Federal Protection Services, and as they are looking at the buildings and hardening the defenses around these buildings, when we talk about the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, I'm getting complaints from our people that in some cases they have hardened the defenses to the point where we can no longer get our ladder companies close enough to get to the building.

You've protected yourself right out of business with us, sir. So I would suggest ropes or, you know, very thick mattresses -and I say that in jest but the truth of the matter is, again, the Federal Government is making decisions and not being cognizant of where the real world is, where people have to live and do business; and they need to find a way to get together and talk to each other so we could come up with reasonable answers to protect our facilities, to protect our entities and our citizens and still do it in a way where we can live.

I'm amazed at the ignorance of some people and their narrow thinking in fixing their problem, and it doesn't it just creates more problems.

Mr. TRAFICANT. Let me say this: The reform we're talking about with the FPS would bring in the local entities and work closely with the Federal Government.

Chief, you mentioned in your testimony, that was probably the liveliest I've heard in my 5 months on the Hill, that there's been four, I presume, Anthrax hoaxes in your city or biological.

Mr. ÉVERSOLE. It was only one Anthrax, sir. We had several different chemical warfare. We found a guy who was scared to keep robbing banks with guns because he thought-he told the FBI that he thought somebody would want to be Superman and jump up and take the gun and beat the hell out of him and he'd be done. So he had read in the newspaper all about this. So he decided he would make a bomb, chemical bomb, and he didn't know how to spell sarin. So he made a Serran bomb, but the matter was that people, as he told-as he told us later on, he said he had never felt so much power because when he said, you know, I'll kill y'all, I got this Serran bomb, and it's chemical, it'll kill everybody, and he said people were pushing into the plaster and marble walls trying to get back away from him; and of course, he got the money. He left the bomb, just keep everybody scared and he ran out, and we had to deal with that.

Mr. TERRY. Well, and that's the focus of my question. So I'll interrupt you on that point there.

You're the ones that have to deal with that. So my question, bringing in with the theme of both of your presentations here, to deal with those four incidents, and thank God they were all hoaxes,

but if they were real, did you receive the training or your firefighters under your command receive the training because of the programs that the city of Chicago has set up or because of the assistance or potential assistance from the Federal Government in dealing with those type of situations? I want you to answer that in two parts, one as the chief in Chicago and the other one in your capacity as the head of the International Association of Fire Chiefs, which would assume that Omaha and those type of cities are part of it. Is it different between Chicago and Omaha or Oklahoma City?

Mr. EVERSOLE. I can't answer for every city, but I think it probably is. We did a joint procedural program where, in our city, the fire department handles hazardous materials and the police handle bombs; and we're very pleased with that, and then some guy started making chemical bombs and messed up our procedures.

So we had to rewrite our procedures, and we now work very carefully between our bomb crews and our hazmat units, and the FBI fits right in there, and they have a certain thing that they do, and they have furnished us with, I believe, all the information. Anything we've ever asked for they have given us, and I don't have I have not a complaint about the FBI and the way they have worked with us.

Mr. TERRY. So there is a role for the Federal Government in assisting you as the wheel, making it more efficient, speedier?

Mr. EVERSOLE. That's true, but the bottom line is we're putting our bomb techs and our hazmat techs are doing the job. The FBI comes in and pays for the lab and gets us anything cleared that we need to get cleared; but, you know, the troops, the troops are the local guys, and it's the troops that got to make the decisions and handle the chemicals and handle the bombs and do all those things.

Mr. TERRY. Part of our oversight needs to be to exactly define, what the Federal role is, so we don't get in your way?

Mr. EVERSOLE. That's very well said, sir. Thank you.

Mr. TERRY. Once in a while, a blind squirrel.

Mr. EVERSOLE. If you could just get the rest of the Federal Government to figure that out, you could run for higher office, sir. Mr. TERRY. I'll conclude with that.

Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you.

Mr. Isakson.

Mr. ISAKSON. Yes. Is it Simank?

Ms. SIMANK. Simank.

Mr. ISAKSON. I'm sorry. First of all, I wanted to tell you, in particular, firemen, law enforcement officials deserve tremendous praise. What happened in Oklahoma City was a tragedy, and all of us wished we'd never watched it; but as I acknowledged earlier, it was your State police that caught McVeigh, and I believe it was your local police that found the axle.

Ms. SIMANK. That's right.

Mr. ISAKSON. That they traced the truck to Missouri. The Federal Government role was in being able to identify a truck through its information bank but nothing in terms of finding it, which brings me to a question. In your National League of Cities' recommendations you commend the NDPO organization. You make