Mr. SACKET. Would you consider that I had knowledge of the nature of it if I had directed a man to expend it in a certain way, and not in certain other ways? The CHAIRMAN. The way to answer that is to give such information as you have. If you have no more knowledge than that, perhaps we will have to be content with it; but if you have more knowledge, it would be to your advantage to give it. The committee will take a recess for five minutes. (At 4 o'clock and 10 minutes p. m. the committee took a recess until 4 o'clock and 15 minutes p. m.) AFTER RECESS. At the expiration of the recess the subcommittee reassembled. The CHAIRMAN. If Mr. Solon S. Perrin is present he will come forward and be sworn. TESTIMONY OF SOLON S. PERRIN. SOLON S. PERRIN responded to his name and was sworn by the chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Perrin, having been sworn as a witness, you will remain in attendance during the sessions of the committee, and you will be heard as early as possible. Now, Mr. Littlefield, I understand you to say that you will have Mr. Edmonds make up that statement of the items of which he has personal knowledge. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Yes. Perhaps I ought to explain that Mr. Edmonds had my copy of this printed testimony before the State committee, and was at work in my room last evening going over these items, in accordance with the suggestion of the chairn.an. I think he had checked in Exhibit 49 all of the items as to which he made the arrangements and gave any directions or instructions. Since that time I have taken that copy back to my room, so that if I am correct the memorandum of his notations is in my room. Senator SUTHERLAND. He was to go over the accounts and come in this morning prepared to testify as to the items of which he had personal knowledge. Mr. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. He was doing that. I do not know whether he has completed it or not. My understanding is that he has, and that he has checked it up in the copy which I have in my room. Sacket is doing the same thing on the copy which he has. Mr. SACKET. I have it almost completed. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Mr. Sacket can proceed with that to-night if you would like to have him do it. The CHAIRMAN. In view of the fact that the witness is going over the statement for the purpose of making his examination more expeditious, the committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. (At 4 o'clock and 21 minutes p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, October 4, 1911, at 10 o'clock a. m.) WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1911. FEDERAL BUILDING, Milwaukee, Wis. The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a. m. rene. Present also: Mr. C. E. Littlefield, Mr. W. E. Black, and Mr. H. H. J. Upham, counsel for Senator Isaac Stephenson. TESTIMONY OF E. A. EDMONDS-Resumed. The CHAIRMAN. The chair will ask Mr. Edmonds to resume the stand. Mr. Edmonds resumed the stand. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Edmonds, on Monday you were requested to look over the account rendered by you or Mr. Sacket, or jointly, and tell the committee as to which particular items in that account you had personal knowledge of, as to the purpose of the expenditures. Have you gone through the accounts? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. At what page in the report have you the accounts? Mr. EDMONDS. Page 588. The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would specify which items in that account were expended under your personal knowledge and direction, and in connection with that statement state whether or not you know for what purpose the money was furnished or expended. Mr. EDMONDS. Yes; and may I make the explanation in making my checkings that some of these I know more about than I do about others? For instance, in Dane County, as to the organizing, I could not say positively that that was money paid to Mr. Ames. The CHAIRMAN. Let us take them in their order, so that the record will be orderly. Which is the first item of which you have personal knowledge? Mr. EDMONDS. July 18, Dane County organizing, $200. The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. That was the explanation that I was giving. The CHAIRMAN. But I want you to repeat your explanation as an answer to my question. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. There is nothing here to indicate The CHAIRMAN. I do not care about that, Mr. Edmonds; I want your knowledge on the subject. Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. I will make it plain to you so that we will not have to repeat it. Either you or Mr. Sacket were represented as having knowledge in regard to the purpose for which the money was paid, and the manner in which it was used. The testimony of each of you together should cover every item in this account. Mr. EDMONDS. May I make this statement, in explanation, that the time has been long since this money was expended, and the report was made The CHAIRMAN. We are aware of that. Mr. EDMONDS. This report is not clear, and simply says "Dane County organizing," giving no names. I have no reason to doubt that that was paid to the man who did the organizing in that county, but I could not swear to it. The CHAIRMAN. Let us start out with a fair understanding. Your reasoning in regard to it is not testimony or evidence. If you will confine yourself as nearly as possible to stating the facts without drawing conclusions, leaving that to the committee, the committee will be obliged, and the committee will take notice of the lapse of time and perhaps of a difficulty which may be found in accurate recollection. But we want your recollection. Take the item of July 18, $200. To whom was that money paid? Do you know? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who directed its payment? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. For what was it paid? The CHAIRMAN. For what was it expended? The CHAIRMAN. When did you last know? The CHAIRMAN. You, then, never knew anything about the item of July 18 for organizing Dane County, $200? Mr. EDMONDS. As to this particular item I do not know that I ever did; I do not remember. The CHAIRMAN. Pass now to the first item of which you have knowledge. Mr. EDMONDS. The item, "General organizing, Edmonds's check, $150." The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. That money was paid to me. The CHAIRMAN. What did you do with it? Mr. EDMONDS. I am unable to recall the exact things I did with it, but it was paid undoubtedly for my expenses at the hotel. The CHAIRMAN. I do not want any speculation in regard to it. Unless you know, do not speculate in respect to it. Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Have you no knowledge as to what use you made of that $150? Mr. EDMONDS. No knowledge as to that particular $150. The CHAIRMAN. And you have no knowledge as to the use you made of it? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not remember what I did with it; no, sir. Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Take the next item of which you have knowledge. Mr. EDMONDS. It is on the next page. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. Give the date. Mr. EDMONDS. July 22, J. W. Wypszinski, $50. The CHAIRMAN. To whom was that money paid? Mr. EDMONDS. To the man whose name is given there, and it was done by my instructions. The CHAIRMAN. Were you present when it was paid to him? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a conversation with him? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What was the conversation? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not recall now, but he was to go out into the different parts of the State to see the people of his nationality. The CHAIRMAN. What was he to do when he saw these people? Mr. EDMONDS. Endeavor to enlist them in the interests of Senator Stephenson's election. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by "enlist” them? Mr. EDMONDS. Talk with them and tell them the qualities of Senator Stephenson and make him the ideal candidate for the United States Senate. The CHAIRMAN. Did you pay that same man any other sum of money? Mr. EDMONDS. I have no recollection unless I find it later in this report. The CHAIRMAN. Did you personally pay him the money? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who did? Mr. EDMONDS. Mr. Sacket. The CHAIRMAN. In your presence? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How do you know that he received that money? Mr. EDMONDS. I think, perhaps, that is not a fair statement for me to make, that I know that Mr. Sacket gave it to him. He was instructed to do it. The CHAIRMAN. You have no personal knowledge in regard to it? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You had a conversation with the man who received the money? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Before or after he received it? Mr. EDMONDS. Before. The CHAIRMAN. What did you tell him to do as a consideration for the receipt of that money? Mr. EDMONDS. To see different people of his nationality in such localities as he would pick out and endeavor to interest them in the campaign. The CHAIRMAN. Where is that man now? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. When did you last see him? Mr. EDMONDS. I think that he came in later, but I am not sure. I never saw him more than once or twice. The CHAIRMAN. Had you any knowledge of him prior to giving him the $50 on July 22? Mr. EDMONDS. No; I think he was sent to me by somebody who knew him. The CHAIRMAN. If you have no actual knowledge on the subject, say so. Did you have any knowledge of this man prior to the time when you gave him or instructed that he be given $50? Mr. LITTLEFIELD. If the chairman will excuse me, of course the Chair does not undertake to exclude the witness from giving his best recollection. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair does not. The witness was not attempting to give his best recollection. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I did not want any misunderstanding between the chairman and the witness. The CHAIRMAN. There is no misunderstanding about it. Mr. LITTLEFIELD. I have not said there was a misunderstanding, but I simply wanted the witness to understand, of course, that he might give his best recollection. There is a technical and a finical way in which a man may give his answer categorically to the questions that are propounded. If he is giving his best recollection, of course, I suppose that is a perfectly proper and competent thing to do. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair advised the witness that we wanted only testimony in regard to matters that he recollected. If he does not recollect, it is proper to say so. We do not want anything but testimony of what the witness does recollect. To resume, Mr. Edmonds, had you any knowledge of this man before the occasion on which you paid him $50, or instructed that $50 be paid to him? Mr. EDMONDS. No personal knowledge except through information. The CHAIRMAN. From whom? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not recall now. The CHAIRMAN. In writing, or otherwise? Mr. EDMONDS. I should say not in writing. Mr. EDMONDS. I do not remember. The CHAIRMAN. Where did this man reside? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Did you know then, when you paid him the money? Mr. EDMONDS. I think so. The CHAIRMAN. Was he a young man or an old man? Mr. EDMONDS. My recollection is that he was perhaps 30 or 35 years old. The CHAIRMAN. The committee would like to know or have such information as would enable it to bring this man before it. Can you give the committee such information? Mr. EDMONDS. By making inquiries I think I can find him; yes. I have never seen him since. The CHAIRMAN. Will you undertake to furnish the committee with the present address of this man? Mr. EDMONDS. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Without any further attention on the part of the committee we will rely on your furnishing the committee with his address. Do you know what county he was from? Mr. EDMONDS. No; I do not. The CHAIRMAN. I notice on July 24 you paid to the same man $25. Did you make that payment in person? Mr. EDMONDS. I do not recall. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether you did or not? Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who would know for what purpose that money was given to this man on the 24th? |