The board further feels that water and land routes should not be compared because one is a free route and in other instances the others are private routes owned and controlled by private sources. Neither do I feel-and this is my own private opinion-that you have any justification in comparing our domestic inland waterway routes and Great Lakes with the St. Lawrence seaway, because one is an international highway and the others are purely domestic routes.

The board feels that waterways by their very nature and purpose differ from each other. In one instance you have broad marine highways available for large mass movements, and in the other cases restrictions impose themselves for narrower channels and locks. Many other situations arise where the problems of flood control, erosion, and other elements, introduce themselves. Consequently it is our belief that factually it would be very difficult to evaluate where one situation ends and another commences.

Here in Chicago we sit astride two great waterways. We are the second largest city in our Nation. On the one hand we have behind us and around us the vast inland waterway that any city can be proud of. Much of the tonnage coming through this waterway is commerce that has aided and will continue to be an important segment of our industrial background. If you impose tolls on public commerce you restrict such movements, because once these user charges are imposed it is impossible to visualize when, if ever, they will be released or lowered. Thus a blanket descends on our waterway developments.

Furthermore, we feel that the principle of exacting tolls on inland waterways is diametrically unsound because one toll can only lead to another, and it would not be too far distant when our vast commerce on the Great Lakes may be faced with the same user charges. One imposition, in our judgment, generally leads to another.

The board respectfully directs your committee's attention to the fact that nowhere in the United States are there any so-called natural harbors because, in fact, all harbors surrounding the United States must in some form or another receive Federal aid to make these harbors safe for navigation. The harbors of New York, New Orleans, San Francisco, and all ocean harbors require constant dredging and maintenance. Certainly no one has ever stated that user charges should be assessed against the commerce entering or leaving these ports.

The principle of user charges is the same, regardless of how you visualize their assessments on whatever development, because all waterway projects, harbors, lakes, rivers, and so forth, have been since the commencement of our Nation natural facilities controlled to some degree by our Government and for the use of all our people.

The board is opposed to the establishment of tolls on our inland waterway system. It is of the opinion that such tolls would result in the impairment of our economic growth and that no sound purpose would be served by their imposition.

The board further states that in our midcontinent area, served as it is by the finest system of rail, truck, and water transportation, that it is living evidence that all forms of transportation can exist and prosper side by side, each serving industry as they are best fitted.

Furthermore, the board wants to call your attention to the fact that the Illinois River was first developed into a navigable waterway by the State of Illinois and later completed by our Government. Con

sequently the people of this State have had and do continue with a very healthy interest in this waterway. Certainly its turnover to the Government must have been with some implied reason that it would continue as a free route.

We have also the spectacle of our sanitary district investing large sums of money in two channels that it is interested in-routes that all people use without prejudice.

Now, finally, it is our belief-and I want to repeat again because we sit astride these great waterways-that our city is in the throes of a vast economic upsurge, and that anything, regardless of how small it is, which hinders this growth, can only result in a hardship.

The board believes that the combination of the St. Lawrence seaway and the culmination of the Cal-Sag, coupled with the finest land transportation in the world, is evidence that our community can and should be served by all of these transportation systems, and that this can be best evidenced by a perpetuation of the present toll-free marine highways.

Mr. REUSS. Mr. Lipscomb.

Mr. LIPSCOMB. No questions.

Mr. REUSS. Thank you very much, Mr. Cohen.

I understand there are a couple of gentlemen from Springfield in the back of the room, a representative of the Illinois State Department of Agriculture and one from the Soil Conservation Service in Illinois. I understand they will be here tomorrow.

Are there any other out-of-town witnesses in the room now? If not, we will have the gentleman over here.

STATEMENT OF NOAH WALKER, WILMETTE, ILL.

Mr. WALKER. Honorable Congressmen, my name is Noah Walker, 1535 Walnut Avenue, Wilmette, Ill. I am appearing here to support recommendation No. 8 as Mr. Buckley supported it, and probably will not be able to support it in as colorful terms as he did; but I am appearing as an individual and also in my personal capacity as an employee of one of the country's largest railroads.

I am assistant general counsel of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, and also of the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad, with offices here in Chicago.

I understand from what I have heard and seen in various publications that my opinion does reflect probably the opinion of the railroad industry itself.

I did receive very late notice of this Friday afternoon, so my remarks will be very brief.

Reference has been made here today to the public and the people. I respectfully submit to the committee that the railroads are part of the public and part of the people. That I think can be shown rather vividly by an article and a picture in the April 23 issue of Traffic World, which is an independent periodical covering both rail and motortruck and water carrier news.

On page 41 of that issue of April 23 there is an article stating how the school board business manager at Crown Point, Ind., requested that the quarterly tax payments be made early because the school system there was low in cash and the payroll for the Hammond school

teachers had to be met. As a result of that the railroads located in Lake County, Ind.-which, from what I heard this morning, I understand is the county in which the former Secretary of Agriculture, Mr. Wickard, now resides the railroads there paid their taxes early so that the schoolteachers could be paid, and in the total amount of $1,135,000 for that period.

With that background and with the fact that the railroads are very large taxpayers in this country, it is my opinion that recommendation No. 8 should be passed by the Congress, because without a user tax on the users of the waterways the railroads are deprived of and have siphoned away from them a very great amount of traffic.

The second fact in that situation is that the railroads, in order to try to meet and compete on that traffic, find their rate structure has eroded to some extent. The further result of that situation is that traffic which is not susceptible to being transported on the inland waterways would then have to bear a greater share of the transportation cost.

Furthermore, I would like to point out we think that when the users of the inland waterways can use them without paying a reasonable user charge, it is subsidization of those carriers.

I would refer the committee just briefly to several documents. No. 1 is a document which was entitled "Public Aids to Transportation," volume III, which was a report by the staff of the Federal Coordinator of Transportation. Also another treatise was The American Transportation Problem, by Harold G. Moulton & Associates, published by the Brookings Institute in 1933.

The third document is The National Transportation Policy, by Charles L. Deering and Wilford Owen, published by the Brookings Institute in 1939.

A fourth is a report to the President of the United States by the Secretary of Commerce, dated December 1, 1949. Just from memory, I think that was Secretary of Commerce Sawyer to President Truman. Briefly, that is my position, and from what I have heard there is one point on which Mr. Buckley, as a representative of the truckers, and I are in agreement.

Mr. REUSS. Hallelujah.

Thank you very much for your very able testimony, Mr. Walker, and also for bearing with us to this late hour in the afternoon. Congressman Lipscomb?

Mr. LIPSCOMB. No questions.

Mr. REUSS. Thank you very much.

Mr. John Staley.

Mr. STALEY. Mr. Chairman, I was told it was agreed I would be called in the morning.

Mr. REUSS. Oh, fine. We will be delighted to hear you in the morning. I knew you had been sitting here all afternoon.

Mr. STALEY. I am very patient.

Mr. REUSS. I can see that.

Mr. MANLEY. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement which will be very brief.

Mr. REUSS. Will you step up and identify yourself, sir?

70818-56-pt. 9-7

STATEMENT OF JOHN J. MANLEY, PORT DIRECTOR, PORT OF CHICAGO

Mr. MANLEY. My name is John J. Manley, port director for the port of Chicago.

Mr. Chairman and honorable Members of Congress, there is very little that I can add to the eloquence of Mr. Maxim M. Cohen in his presentation to you. I am representing today officially the city of Chicago and I present to you the sincere regrets of His Honor, the mayor, who was invited to be here, but who could not come. I am here in kind of a humble position, representing the mayor.

I might also like to state that I am here also in a private capacity. I happen to have a master's license, unlimited tonnage, and also a pilot's license for the Great Lakes connecting and tributary waters.

Mr. Cohen had said that from time immemorial the waterways of these great United States had always been free-free of tolls and user charges. I echo those sentiments both privately and publicly for the city of Chicago.

Gentlemen, it has been stated here by representatives of the railroads and representatives of the trucking industry that the waterways should be taxed both for user charges, and I presume they also mean for toll charges, for usage of locks, perhaps. But, gentlemen, the railroads perhaps and truckers perhaps have forgotten that there are, possibly since 1914, some billions and billions of ton-miles that these water carriers have given to them as their bread of life.

Gentlemen, I briefly submit that there should be no toll charges; that there should be no usage charges levied against these great waterways that have done so much for our country from the landing of the Pilgrim Fathers up to the present time. The waterways have proved themselves in our great emergencies. They have proved that they are the backbone of our country. Speaking of the Great Lakes alone, the coastal lines for our Great Lakes and coastal ports are twice the amount of the coastal ports of either the Atlantic and Pacific combined. The area for development that waterways can bring to these ports with the St. Lawrence seaway a reality is tremendous. The prospective development for these shorelines of ours and the connecting tributary rivers is so great that the railroads and the trucking lines are indeed very shortsighted, knowing the history since 1914 of the tremendous tonnage which the waterways have given to them at no cost, I might add, to these same truckers and same railroads.

I am sorry I do not have a prepared statement to give to the gentleman on my left, but I thank you for the privilege of coming here. It has been a very enjoyable few moments for me.

Thank you very much.

Mr. REUSS. Mr. Lipscomb.

Mr. LIPSCOMB. No questions.

Mr. REUSS. Thank you very much, Mr. Manley.

Five o'clock is approaching and it is the custom to adjourn at this time. If there is a witness here whose testimony is brief and who cannot appear tomorrow, we will be glad to hear him.

The gentleman in the back of the room. I think this will be the last witness for the day. Will you step forward and identify yourself, please?

STATEMENT OF PATRICK J. CULLNAN, JR., SHIP CAPTAIN, GRAND PRESIDENT, LICENSED TUGMEN'S PROTECTIVE ASSOCIATION

Mr. CULLNAN. My name is Patrick J. Cullnan, Jr.

Mr. REUSS. Sit down and proceed, please, Mr. Cullnan.

Mr. CULLNAN. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate very much this opportunity to appear before your committee on rather short notice. My name is Patrick J. Cullnan, Jr. I am a ship captain, licensed as a master and first class pilot for the Great Lakes, connecting and tributary waters. I am grand president of the Licensed Tugmen's Protective Association of America, A. F. of L. I also serve as vice president of the International Brotherhood of Longshoremen, A. F. of L., and secretary of the Maritime Trades Department of A. F. of L., Greater Chicago area.

During the past several years I have also been a member of the Chicago Regional Port District Board, which is a governmental body, created by Illinois law, charged with certain responsibilities for port development. At present, I am vice chairman of that board.

My statement here today will be concerned with the matter of tolls on navigable waters, because the 18 labor unions for whom I speak, namely:

No. 374-Grand Lodge, Chicago, Ill.:

Local No. 1, Duluth, Minn.

Local No. 2, Chicago, Ill.

Local No. 3, Ashtabula, Ohio

Local No. 4, Buffalo, N. Y.

Local No. 5, Cleveland, Ohio

Local No. 8, Milwaukee, Wis.

Local No. 9, Toledo, Ohio

Local No. 10, Elberta-Frankfort, Mich.

Local No. 11, Sault Ste. Marie, Mich.

Local No. 12, Erie, Pa.

Local No. 14, Sandusky, Ohio

Local No. 16, Detroit, Mich.

Local No. 23, Ogdensburg, N. Y.

Local No. 24, Sturgeon Bay, Wis.

Local No. 26, Muskegon, Mich.

Local No. 29, Lorain, Ohio

Local No. 34, Detroit, Mich.

All are vigorously opposed to recommendation No. 8 of the report on water resources and power.

We subscribe to the principle which has been demonstrated at previous hearings of this committee and before other governmental bodies that the continued free use of the navigable waterways is essential to our country's economic welfare, to the growth and expansion of its industry and to a high employment index. It has been shown that the transportation of bulk commodities and raw materials to industry by ships, and barges, is responsible for many industries which would not otherwise exist. The effect of the revival of navigation on the Great Lakes, New York State Barge Canal, Illinois River, Mississippi River, and its tributaries this past quarter century has been to better all of the people of this country, including competing forms of transportation. The savings in costs brought about by use of our Great Lakes and rivers are enjoyed by all of the people in many ways.

Along the banks of the Illinois River and its connecting channels I have seen the industries commence since that depression day of 1933