communities for the construction of such facilities. This would, of course, include schools, airports, hospitals, and similar facilities, and to them the same apportionment formula could be applied.

11. One of the great institutions in Illinois is the University of Southern Illinois, which has made great progress under the capable leadership of President Delyte Morris, and I envision the day when it will be one of the truly great institutions of learning in the United States. It is growing year by year. I have found particular delight in working with different people from the faculty, including the president of the university. All of them have a keen sense of appreciation of their particular responsibility to the area where the university is located. At this institution there is a wealth of brains and talent for utilization in connection with this problem if Congress will but make it possible. I know of nothing that would pay greater dividends than to authorize the administrator of the Depressed Areas Act to make grants of funds available to the university so that this talent can be utilized in finding an adequate solution for the problem in that particular area. Already in the case of the University of Southern Illinois they have done notable work in the forestry and timber utilization field. I am confident they can do equally good work in still other fields, and especially where the natural resources of the particular area are involved. This hope deserves every encouragement and consequently some of these funds should be made available for that purpose.

12. It may also be necessary to make some provision for housing in the communities where new plants might be constructed. One of the first things which a plant locator explores in addition to water, fuel, transportation, and other resources is the availability of housing. Already workers in the lower reaches of the State are driving a great many miles to their places of employment but when an industry is brought to a town it must be possible to provide housing for the workers and a provision would be supplementary to provisions already carried in general housing legislation which is now on the statute books. I have some other suggestions in mind and have already reduced all of these to amendment form so that they might be ready for consideration when the committee has completed its hearings and is prepared to take action on the pending bill. I am deeply interested in the pending proposals and want to be sure that if legislation is reported to the Senate floor that we will have a bill which represents a determined and wholehearted approach to this problem of depressed areas.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ashley?

Mr. ASHLEY. I just have one question, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Hughes, I have been appalled by the decline in employment which has taken place in the area you represent, particularly in the mining industry. I take it that it is your thought that assistance to new manufacturing industry may lead to a revitalization of southern Illinois mining; is that correct, sir?

Mr. HUGHES. We don't think we can do the whole job that way. We can add a thousand manufacturing jobs a year, but while we add a thousand manufacturing jobs, we lose 1,500 to the coal mining, by the declining operation of the coal mines, mechanization of the coal mines, and that sort of thing. It used to take a thousand men to operate a mine. Now 200 or 250 men with this heavy machinery, and fast-moving machinery, can do it.

Mr. ASHLEY. You stated only 5 mines are currently in operation as against 26.

Mr. HUGHES. Yes. We lost markets, too, you understand. Mr. ASHLEY. I am interested in that; your deep-shaft mines, are they conducive to modern mechanization?

Mr. HUGHES. Oh, yes; but we ran them right on through World War II, getting out every ton of coal that we could. Then after the war our machinery was obsolete, and our mines have been worked back. Now we are actually getting ready to open 1 or 2 new mines, in Franklin County, with the slope mines and conveyor belt and the

buggies and all of the modern mechanization that goes with modern coal mining. We are going through a transition period here and it is hurting.

Mr. ASHLEY. So even if your mining industry comes back, you are going to have a loss of employment which has to be taken up.

Mr. HUGHES. That is right. We still have thousands of people stranded there, and they like to live in southern Illinois. They have their houses, their schools, their churches, and university, and their waterworks extended, and their sidewalks and there is no reason to upset the housing situation. It is so much simpler to bring a few thousand manufacturing jobs in there than to have those people abandon their schools as my picture showed in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. We can do that by working on this farm program, timber program, rehabilitating fluorspar mines, as I said something about the importations of fluorspar from Mexico, then this canalization of the Big Muddy, and Beaucoup Creek, and eventually Big Wren Lake that we want up at the north end. It will make us an industrial empire sitting on a pile of coal that will be a wonderful asset to the defense interests of this country.

At the same time we will take a few thousand people off relief, contribute a few more millions to the income tax support of our Government; instead of being on the red side, we will be on the positive or black side of the ledger. It will pay for itself in 5 to 10 years any way you figure it.

Mr. ASHLEY. I, too, want to commend you, Mr. Hughes, on the imagination and the scope of your presentation.

Mr. HUGHES. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McVey

Mr. McVEY. Mr. Hughes, there are 2 or 3 things about which I should like to comment. In your statement you referred to the waters of the Beaucoup Creek. It entailed an expenditure of about $30 million. I agree if we spend $56 million in Egypt we ought to be able to spend $30 million in southern Illinois. I wonder how those figures were arrived at.

Mr. HUGHES. In 1922 the engineers gave us a survey of $110 million of the Big Muddy 8-foot channel at a cost of $4,832,000, and I multiplied it by 7 and came up with about $28 million, added $2 million more to make it $30 million and talked to the engineers about it and asked them how far I missed it and they said possibly $5 million. I have talked to the engineers at the St. Louis district office.

Mr. MCVEY. You multiplied the original estimate by 7?

Mr. HUGHES. That is right. The thing is, everything is more expensive, wages and materials are much higher. The thing that will offset it is they have such fine machinery now and big power shovels they can dredge out that river much easier than they could have in 1922. It will be a much more efficient operation.

Mr. MCVEY. Another thing you said about the inland waterway was that there would be jobs created for 10,000 coal miners.

Mr. HUGHES. I said 2,500 coal miners to pull out that other 10 million tons; that the experts testified at our hearing in Murphrysboro that somewhere between 9 million and 11 million additional tons of coal could come from this market and go on north into areas we are not now serving as the electrical industry expands.

We want to point out we are not trespassing on anybody's domain or rights now, or markets, but we are looking for expanding markets. We want to share in them; 10 million tons, it would take 2,500 additional coal miners to get that out.

Mr. McVEY. That will not take jobs away from coal miners elsewhere?

Mr. HUGHES. We do not think so.

Mr. McVEY. There is one other question and then I am through. I have a lot of sympathy for these workmen who are unemployed, and have been for some time. How are they living?

Mr. HUGHES. The Government is spending $1,127,000 a month down there; the State and Federal Government is spending $1,127,193 for the month of October 1955, and I am presuming they spent about that much on the average throughout the year so those people can live. Mr. McVEY. That is unemployment compensation?

Mr. HUGHES. No. That is public assistance, the Federal and State both, I think, contribute to that. That is how they are living. That answers your question. That is a deplorable thing. We are not particularly proud of it. We want to do something about it. As I said, we were not proud of those pictures and I do not want to leave the impression southern Illinois looks like that. Those are typical situations that the Post Dispatch indicated. We can show you a lot of beautiful things down in Illinois.

Mr. MCVEY. I know time is short, Mr. Hughes, but we hear this argument against this bill, an argument to the effect that it will provide a means whereby industries which want to locate in regions where labor can be employed more cheaply will be bailed out by the Federal Government and be removed to that new location. Is there anything in this bill that would do this?

Mr. HUGHES. We would expect those people moving in there to operate on about the same wage scale as we now have. Our area. is not considered a low-wage area at all. We are helped by a minimum wage law that was passed by the last session of the Congress, because the minimum wage is now $1, effective March 1, and I do not think that would be true. I do not think it would be any more true than we may have suffered by the competition of TVA and things like that, and we certainly are not decrying the benefits that have gone to those areas. We would just like to share in them. That is all.

Mr. MCVEY. Is there anything in this bill that would help financially, relocation of such industries?

Mr. HUGHES. This bill has some assistance for us. I would like to call your attention to the fact, if I may, that this bill says 25 percent and 15 percent. Is that for me to stop?

The CLERK. No.

Mr. HUGHES. I thought it was. This bill calls for 25 percent from the Federal and 15 percent from the State. Our State legislature won't be in session until next year. We could not get any possible help for at least a year. We would like that part remedied.

The Douglas bill says 66% percent. Senator Dirksen comes along and says "Let's make it 75 percent.' If we could have that money to draw against with our resources-most of my communities there will lay $100,000 on the line. Congressman Gray's town, of West Frankfort, just recently laid $128,000 on the line, to attract a branch

factory of a big nationally-known concern. Herrin laid $400,000 on the line to attract Allen Industries' branch, a subsidiary of Allen Industries in Detroit. If those people can reach in their pockets once and do that, that is how we are getting the thousand jobs a year. They keep going back to the pocket and there is no money there.

We can go ahead and eventually, I guess, if time will permit, we will eventually get ourselves out of this thing in a period of 10 or 15 years. This canalization, and educational program, and a fund we could borrow on, if our 19 counties down there could borrow on a fund of $6 or $7 million, a revolving fund we could pull those counties out in 5 years and we will be up contributing to the national income, and national support instead of a distressed area that everybody seems to sympathize with. We would be an area that you could be as proud of as we are.

The CHAIRMAN. We have another witness.

Mr. HUGHES. Thank you, very much.

Mr. BOLTON. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, very much.

Mr. Bolton

Mr. BOLTON. I have two questions I would like to ask Mr. Hughes, if I might. First, as to the Big Muddy River, is this an authorized project now, sir?

Mr. HUGHES. Yes. It has been classified as a navigable river for a good many years and it is authorized for study. The engineers have been ordered to make a survey. They held a hearing at Murphysboro, on February 21, and there must have been 2,000 or 3,000 people in there. They made a great impression on them. They are going ahead, going through that great pile of evidence and testimony, and I believe that they spent $10,000 on the first preliminary and I think there is $65,000 in some sort of a fund somewhere, thousands, for the rest of the study, and we would like for some of you, in whose capacity it is to pursue that for us and watch it for us. We know our Congressman and both of our Senators will be watching.

Mr. BOLTON. Thank you, sir.

Secondly, if these towns can come up with $100,000 or $125,000– Mr. HUGHES. They can do that once.

Mr. BOLTON. You feel they can come up with 15 percent of any proposed project?

The CHAIRMAN. This committee has no jurisdiction of that. What you want to do is get the Army Engineers to recommend it and go before the Appropriations Committee to get the appropriation. Mr. HUGHES. That is the next step, Mr. Spence, I am sure. The CHAIRMAN. We have got another witness.

Mr. BOLTON. I am through, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hughes. You have made an excellent statement and spoken well for the people you represent. We are glad to have your views.

Call the next witness, please.

The CLERK. The next witness is Mr. Perry M. Shoemaker, appearing for the United States Chamber of Commerce.

STATEMENT OF PERRY M. SHOEMAKER, REPRESENTING THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF THE UNITED STATES

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Shoemaker, if you have a written statement you may read it, without interruption, if you desire.

Mr. SHOEMAKER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

May I inquire, sir, as to the limitations of time? If it would be helpful to the committee, I can summarize this statement somewhat.

The CHAIRMAN. We can stay here until we are called to the House. The House will be in session in a few minutes, but you may proceed to read that. I think you will have time to read it.

Mr. SHOEMAKER. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Perry M. Shoemaker, president of the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad Co. I appear today for the Chamber of Commerce of the United States, a federation of 3,200 organizations with an underlying membership of 1,700,000 businessmen. I am a member of the national chamber's committee on economic policy.

I would like to introduce to the committee Mr. Guy Waterman of the chamber's economic research department, whom I asked to sit up here with me.

I am here to present the views of the national chamber on H. R. 8555, which is designed to provide Federal assistance to areas of substantial and persistent unemployment.

It is important not only for the people of these areas, but also for the vigor of the national economy that productive employment be found for unemployed resources, particularly human resources. It is equally important that such revival be soundly based, since only then will it result in permanent and expanding job opportunities.

fore oppose its passage.

The national chamber believes, however, that H. R. 8555 would not contribute to a sound revival for depressed labor areas. We thereFinding productive employment for resources in areas which have long experienced substantial and persistent unemployment is a difficult task. It will take time. Those who have worked in the field of industrial development know that there are no panaceas, no easy roads to local prosperity. They know also that through determined effort by all groups in a community, success can be achieved on a basis which promises future economic growth and expanding job opportunities.

The national chamber has, for years, attempted to provide assistance to local industrial development efforts. Our department of manufacture and industrial development, which has been expandeded to put new emphasis on the industrial development phase, has prepared numerous guides for community efforts to attract new industry. We provide staff services for the American Industrial Development Council.

In the last 3 years, our chamber of commerce service department has met over 15,000 businessmen in 70 workshops in every State of the Union which have taken up the problem of industrial development. Our construction and civic development department has an extensive urban development program. Our economic research department recently published a report, entitled "Getting and Holding Good Em