Senator MORSE. Who are the members of your credit union from the standpoint of your, shall I say, clients or customers?

Mr. RIPPEY. It is largely the middle class and working class, Federal employees, any place where there is a solid common bond of employment or of association, such as a church. It does not go into the upper incomes. And at this point we are working very hard to take it down to the lower income levels.

Senator MORSE. These are Federal employees-No. 1, they are Federal employees.

Mr. RIPPEY. Some of them are, Senator. Not all of them. About 10 percent are Federal employees.

Senator MORSE. Ten percent are Federal employees.

Mr. RIPPEY. Yes, sir.

Senator MORSE. What is the income cross section or employment cross section of the other 90?

Mr. RIPPEY. I would have to guess. On, say, family incomes, I would say from about $5,000 to $10,000 a year would be

Senator MORSE. What occupations?

Mr. RIPPEY. Everything. We have a breakdown here: in manufacturing, in just anything you name; food, stone, glass, primary metal, transportation, communication, wholesale, retail, finance, education of course there are many credit unions in schools to service the teachers in school districts across the country, also State, county, and local governments.

Senator MORSE. Every borrower is carefully investigated by a committee that passes upon its request for a loan?

Mr. RIPPEY. Yes, sir. The members elect a credit committee and they pass on each borrower.

Senator MORSE. And you say that your collection rate on the basis of loans made is not exceeded by any commercial loaning house?

Mr. RIPPEY. That is right, sir. This is for Federal credit unions, and we do not have the same precise figures for State credit unions, but it is within a few percentage points. The loss ratio since 1934, when the Federal Credit Union Act was established, is 0.22 percent. Meaning that amount of loans has been lost. And we feel that it is a very good figure and one that would stand comparison with any other type of lender.

Senator MORSE. Have you been told directly, or has it been suggested to you indirectly as to any reason why you are not presently included in the loaning provisions of this bill, whereas the so-called commercial banks and other commercial loaning institutions are included?

Mr. RIPPEY. No, sir; we have no information about that.
Senator MORSE. Do you think it is a matter of oversight?

Mr. RIPPEY. Yes, sir. I do not think it is anything else but. Senator MORSE. Senator Kennedy, do you happen to have any questions?

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I do not have any questions. Senator MORSE.. I want to thank you very much.

Mr. RIPPEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator MORSE. Our next witness is the president of Northeastern University, Dr. Asa S. Knowles, vice chairman of the national commission. I would like very much to give the honor and privilege to

Senator Kennedy of presenting him to the subcommittee. And Dr. James P. Dixon, a member of the national commission, and president of Antioch College, Yellow Springs, Ohio, is associated with Dr. Knowles.

STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD M. KENNEDY, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity of presenting to this subcommittee Dr. Asa Knowles, who is the president of Northeastern University, and has been the president of Northeastern University since 1958. He is particularly well qualified to speak on the higher education bill before this subcommittee. Mr. Knowles has been a lifelong resident of the State of Massachusetts and has been associated with Northeastern University since 1931.

As we all know, Mr. Chairman, Northeastern has been one of the leading higher educational institutions in New England and the country that has successfully combined a program of high academic standard with practical work experience. The university is a growing force in the New England area as a result of the strong leadership which has been provided by President Knowles. And I think this subcommittee will benefit from the insights of this gentleman.

Northeastern University is a fine example of a high educational institution that has developed many means to serve the community. And many of the ways that have been provided by Northeastern University are ways in which are contemplated by the Higher Education Act.

And so I am personally familiar, Mr. Chairman, with the work that has been done and has been initiated and stimulated and to a great extent brought forward by President Knowles and his very fine committee and trustees and associates at Northeastern University. That is why I think this subcommittee is particularly well served by hearing the comments and the testimony of President Knowles. I appreciate your kindness in letting me come down and introduce President Knowles to this subcommittee.

Senator MORSE. Well, Dr. Knowles-the Senator from Massachusetts can close his ears for a moment-I tell you, as chairman of this subcommittee, that I could not have had better cooperation in the past, or better cooperation that I am receiving on the bills this year than I have received from Senator Kennedy from Massachusetts. In fact, prior to his unfortunate airplane accident, there was no member of any subcommittee that had a better attendance record at my hearings than the Senator from Massachusetts, although he was not even a member of the subcommittee. He is a member of the full committee and has taken a great interest in what I referred to earlier this morning as the educational crisis in this country. I am glad that he gave me this opportunity through you to express my appreciation to him on the record in connection with his introduction of you. Last year on S. 2490 we had Dean Wooldridge, the dean and director of cooperative education at your university, make a record in behalf of your institution, which you will find on page 525 of part 2 of those

hearings. It is a very significant contribution in support of that bill, and I wish you would take back to Dean Wooldridge my thanks. One of the troubles in our busy life down here is that we have a witness such as you this morning; you make a record, and there is subsequent legislative action taken, and you may think that we forgot all about you because you never hear from us thereafter, but we just have to take judicial notice that you know and every witness knows that this subcommittee appreciates the help that you are to us because you are the ones that pass the bill. We do not pass it. We just direct the legislative traffic, so to speak, and serve as legislative counsel for witnesses who testify.

I am delighted to have you here as I am to have Dr. Dixon. You two gentlemen may proceed in your own way. You can either read your statements or we will put your statements in the record and you can summarize them, whatever is your pleasure.

STATEMENT OF DR. ASA S. KNOWLES, PRESIDENT, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY, BOSTON, MASS.

Mr. KNOWLES. Thank you very much, Senator Morse.

And, Senator Kennedy, thank you very much for your very nice introduction.

I want to assure you, Senator Morse, that Senator Kennedy is held in the highest esteem in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. We are very proud of him as a Senator and we think he is serving the State admirably.

Senator MORSE. I knew that when I made a couple of speeches for him up there.

Mr. KNOWLES. I am here this morning-my name I perhaps should say for the record is Asa S. Knowles, president of Northeastern University. I am serving also as the vice chairman of the National Commission for Cooperative Education.

And I would like to insert in the record sometime a formal statement which I have which is in support of Senate bill 600, the Higher Education Act of 1965, and specifically I would like to speak to section 304, item a (4) wherein the Commissioner of Education is authorized to assist and aid in developing institutions and strengthening their academic programs through grants for the development and operation of cooperative education programs involving alternate periods of academic study and business or public employment.

First of all, I would like to define briefly cooperative education as I know it, and I am going to talk informally from now on and ask that my statement be inserted in the record.

Senator MORSE. The entire statement will be inserted in the record. Mr. KNOWLES. Thank you.

The definition of "cooperative education" which I like best is a very simple describing of how it works at Northeastern which is very much like other cooperative colleges and universities. And let me say that there are now 82 colleges or universities which claim to be cooperative in their plan of operation. There were 45 at the end of World War II. There are now 82. And currently at Northeastern through our center for cooperative education information we are assisting 21 other colleges to become cooperative that are changing from the traditional

pattern of education, the traditional 4-year college with a regular summer vacation to semesters in 4 years to become a 5-year cooperative college and going to school around the calendar and having the alternating periods of work and study.

At Northeastern all students go to school their first year full time, and this is a full academic year. In the fall, or sophomore year following the freshman year they are divided into two divisions, division A and division B, about equal in size in terms of numbers; division A goes to school in the fall, division B goes on a job.

At Northeastern we control and handle some 1,300 jobs, actually 1,356 as of last week, which are cooperative work jobs which we can control and to which we can assign students. And these jobs are spread throughout the United States from California to Maine, from Florida to the Canadian border, and actually some in Canada. And later Dr. Dixon can tell you that he has some abroad.

The plan of cooperative education as we know it, working with these 1,356 different employers, means that cooperative education is becoming very widespread and very well known.

Now, these students go to work in the fall; division A to work, division B to school, and after that they exchange places. The boy who has been in school goes on to the job, and the boy who has been on the job, comes back to school. And this goes on for the next 4 years. So at the end of 5 years they have completed all the requirements of the traditional college, all the weeks of school, all the academic hours, all of the work that is normally required. And they have in addition 2 hours of experience in the field of study in which they are specializing. If they are an accounting major, they will have it in accounting. If they are an engineer, they will have it in engineering. If they are in nursing, they will have it in hospitals and nursing. If they are in pharmacy, they will have it in hospital pharmacies or in retail pharmacies. And if they are in education, they will have it in teaching. During this period they can earn all or nearly all of their expenses going to school. Their big need is to help them in their freshman year to get started and to get on the way. Actually, at Northeastern we give out about $400,000 in freshmen scholarships each year, and we bring in large numbers of youngsters, many of whom could not go to college unless they could come to this kind of a college. And we think it results in a very superior kind of education, also, of which I will speak to very briefly soon.

The plan at Northeastern has been copied very widely. We copied originally from Cincinnati where cooperative education originated, but we have become the largest cooperative university in the world, in the free world that is, and we think this education is very exciting. It is distinctly American. It is different. It is not like the traditional college. And it has a real uniqueness of its own in terms of quality and the end result. Many, many employers tell me that the best graduate they get comes from this kind of school. Particularly from our school in the area where we are they will speak of Northeastern, naturally, but I am sure other employers in other parts of the country would speak equally highly of other colleges with this type of education. And they point out that the students know how to work, and the students are serious about what they are doing. They are well educated and they can go right to work. Actually, we know that many

graduates get 20 percent higher pay in going into various jobs and various professions from the cooperative colleges, 20 percent higher that is than the amount they would have received if they graduated from a traditional college. And this is in recognition of the 2 years of experience which they have acquired during their cooperative training program.

At Northeastern we have, for a long time, been expanding cooperative education and we now have it in 7 colleges and in 40 different programs, including pharmacy, nursing, medical technology. This works very, very well in the health science field. A lot of students can get good experience in the hospitals and the health agencies and in the various clinics and in laboratories. And it is a very fine program for this kind of profession.

And recently the medical colleges in Boston, the big medical center asked us to set up some 14 new and different programs leading to the bachelor degrees and to some master's degrees on this plan of education. We cannot do all of them. We hope to do some of them. We have altogether at Northeastern 6,000 upper class students who are placed on jobs.

Now, I mention all of these things to give you some background to point out that this is a large institute in serving the Nation in terms of cooperative education, many programs being national in terms of their placement. And we find that it has distinct advantages, which I would like to mention right now.

First of all, we think it is a superior kind of education, and your whole bill, this section of the bill is designed to improve the quality of education through some kind of innovation, because this is the type of education that when the youngster has finished his course program he not only has the background of his academic work acquired in the school, but he has rich experience. And very frequently a training program, which is carefully planned by the industry, a training program, let us say, in electrical engineering, a training program in nursing, a training program in pharmacy or in business administration, or in some of the science fields or many of the liberal arts fields-for example, our students majoring in political science work in the State Department, some of them work in the Governor's office, they work for the city. We have students down here in the Library of Congress, in the Federal Power Commission, and we have them working for a great many of the county agencies as well as the State. And this is good educational experience for them, for the liberal arts major in the humanities.

I mentioned those particularly because sometimes people think it is not easy to place people in the hunmanties field. It works out very well. A language major can work in a library and become a library assistant handling foreign publications, for example.

So we think this is a superior kind of education that you combine experience, know-how, the practical application of what you are studying, we think the end result is superior to what you get from the traditional college.

Actually, we think it provides a superior motivation because on the cooperative plan of education you can see the results of what they are learning, the applications of it, and they are apt to stay in school and have more of a motivation to do so than the student in the tra