through unified administrative approach. And some of Mr. Antioquia's problem about the fractionalization of the JOM money, for instance, through too much administrative cost if every entity has a right to self determination.

Commissioner BORBRIDGE. I would be very interested in having the witness comment if he feels he can distinguish pretty well between the situation in southeast and the situation in the northern area. I, too, feel the same concern about on the one hand being very sympthetically disposed to the concept of self determination as a local thing, where people and organizations need to be involved and to learn from the doing even if it means in the process both making brilliant decisions and occasionally mistakes. Again, however, I appreciate that with respect to contracting, for example, I'm well aware that in contracting efforts between central council and the BIA area office that there are services which are sort of inter-branched and, as such, it's very difficult for the negotiating contract officer in the area office to be able to break out some of those costs and some of these are services that are provided, sometimes on an informal basis, wouldn't you say, Mr. Antioquia, and to attach a dollar value to each of the services, which are kind of support services paid to the southeast agency, for example, when it is all being done by the area. It's a very difficult thing. I think the point I would make, therefore, is that even when the services are carefully broken out so that as with the central council they are, in fact, able to administer those services, there are, in fact, support costs which in my opinion aren't fully broken out, and, therefore, which are not available to the council. It leaves the council with the responsibility, as an example, of having to provide certain level of services but, frankly, with a little bit less support than the area office itself had at the same time. I'm concerned too about the structures in which it is understandable that accountability is a very important element, yet in an effort to require compliance with the strict letter of the law or regulations, this has a very definite tendency to inhibit a creative ability and to inhibit an innovative approach to the delivery of services.

The unfortunate thing is this was the being for the provision of the opportunity to contract by the Indians and the Natives, namely, that they could do it differently, they could do it better. Yet the fact is, they are being inhibited from this very thing.

I appreciate that the committee is addressing itself to this matter. I think we're on the verge of some very exciting innovative efforts, but all we need to do is give the Indians the opportunity to do those things that the Congress envisioned could be done and should be done. Senator ABOUREZK. Thank you very much and we appreciate—if you'll send that to me in Washington, the ideas that you have, we would be very grateful.

Mr. KATZEEK. Who will have your address?

Senator ABOUREZK. Check with Senator Gravel's field office here. There's only a hundred of us in Washington. Just send it to Washington, D.C. and they will find us. [Statement not received in time to be included in the printed record.]

Senator GRAVEL. Jim Abourezk.

Mr. KATZEEK. In conclusion, I didn't mean to-I hope I didn't offend any of you men. I didn't mean to. It's just that for one of the

few times, I think, in my life I kind of got a little emotional and I apologize for that. But, on the other hand, I don't apologize for the things that I said.

Senator GRAVEL. Do it more often.

Senator ABOUREZK. I thought I'd tell you, we've never heard anybody denounce us or criticize us before, so it was a shock. The hearings are in recess until tomorrow morning in Anchorage. Thank you all very much.

[Whereupon at 4:55 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene Friday, September 3, 1976, at Anchorage, Alaska.]

PROBLEMS OF DEFINITION OF TRIBE IN ALASKA

RELATING TO PUBLIC LAW 93-638

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 1976

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS,

OF THE COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS,

Anchorage, Alaska. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a.m., in the Loussac Library, Anchorage, Alaska, Hon. Jones Abourezk presiding. Present: Senators Abourezk, Gravel, Stevens and Commissioner John Borbridge, American Indian Policy Review Commission. Also present: Tony Strong, professional staff member.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES ABOUREZK, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA

Senator ABOUREZK. The Indian Affairs Subcommittee hearing will come to order. My name is Senator James Abourezk from South Dakota. I'm chairman of the Indian Affairs Subcommittee. Just by way of a brief opening statement, I'm going to say that I'm here at the request of Senator Gravel and Senator Stevens to come up and try to iron out a problem of definition of "What is a tribal governing body?" For the purposes of the law which was passed a couple of years ago, 93-638, the Indian Self-Determination Act, which provides that Indian tribal governing bodies can contract for their own services with the U.S. Government. The problem in Alaska is that there are many different tribal governing entities that have been set up as a result of these Alaskan Native Claims Law, and many of them are competing for this right to contract and the Government is having difficulty in determining with which entity to deal. So, we're going to try to iron out some definitions today and in future hearings, and we have a list of witnesses that will hopefully will provide us with some more insight after our hearings in Juneau yesterday.

The hearings will continue in Bethel and in Fairbanks tomorrow as I have to return to South Dakota today. Sitting as ex-officio members of the Indian Affairs Subcommittee are Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska, Senator Stevens of Alaska, and also, since these are informally joint hearings between the American Indian Policy Review Commission and the Senate Interior Committee, a Commission member of the American Indian Policy Review Commission is sitting with us today and his name is John Borbridge from Juneau, Alaska, sitting over here on my left. And, I would like first of all, to ask Senator Gravel if he has an opening statement?

STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE GRAVEL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALASKA

Senator GRAVEL. Only to thank you, Jim for coming to Alaska. Not only will this serve to give you some grounding with respect to our particular problem of the definition of Indian under existing legislation, but it will give you some degree of grounding knowledge of the State to better equip you with respect to (d) (2) lands, which will be quite an important issue effecting not only the Native community in Alaska, but all the people of Alaska. We're personally grateful for your coming to the State and appreciate the attention that you have given to the subject. Ted, your turn.

Senator ABOUREZK. Senator Stevens.

STATEMENT OF HON. TED STEVENS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALASKA

Senator STEVENS. I too, am happy that Senator Abourezk has responded to our request to go into this matter, it's a very simplistic one it looks like, but the more we get into the subject of who or which entity should be the equal governing body of a particular area for the purpose of the Federal law, the more difficult it becomes because of a series of acts passed by the Federal Government and also because of the traditions that have been developed among the Alaska Native people which is not the same as those that exist with identifiable Native tribes in the South Forty-Eight.

I'm hopeful that the people will realize that this is not just a sterile record, but a record of use of Alaska people that will be looked at by Congress to try and determine a solution, or at least to provide the framework so that the people involved can make their own decision of which entity should be the legal governing body for this purpose. And, I am one who believes that that does not necessarily have to be the same decision in every area of the State. There will be self-determination in the very making of the decision as to which entity or which organization will be looked to by particular Native groups as being the legal governing body, which is the same as the tribal organization in the South Forty-Eight.

Senator ABOUREZK. Thank you. John Borbridge, do you have a statement?

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BORBRIDGE, COMMISSIONER OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN POLICY REVIEW COMMISSION

Commissioner BORBRIDGE. Yes, I would like to add my appreciation to those extended by our Alaskan Senators to Chairman Abourezk for his willingness to have the hearings held in Alaska. Senator Abourezk sits not only as the chairman of the Subcommittee on Indian Affairs in the Senate, but also as chairman of the American Indian Policy Review Commission. As a Commissioner on that organization, I can state that we are concerned about the entire spectrum of issues emanating from the special relationship existing between Indians and the Alaska Natives and the Federal Government. To the extent that such issues