So that is our-we are recognizing that.

On the other hand in such areas as Southeast Alaska where there are also second class cities, there's a predominant number of nonIndian people there. We are not making that same determination in those cases. But in this area we are.

Senator STEVENS. But you haven't

Senator GRAVEL. Excuse me, Senator Stevens. But you haven't made a precise difference between the two. It's easy in this area because it's so predominantly and in southeastern the majority is white in many of them so it's easy there. But there's a big borderline, there's a big group in the middle that as these developments go forward it could be a problem.

Mr. ANTIOQUIA. Our analysis, Mr. Chairman, is that this particular position that we've taken will probably cover most of the villages throughout the State. Not just in the AVCP region, but also Nome, and the Arctic Slope and the interior villages. And then we would deal with those that are-that don't fit that definition on an individual basis, again if there is an IRA form of government we would recognize that, a traditional form, or if nothing else, then the village corporation that exists in that community because of their definition of a tribe.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you. Senator Stevens.

Senator STEVENS. Well, my problem with-we're all taxpayers to the State, the impact of having, for instance in the social service area, a very small percentage of the population not covered would-still the obligation of the State to provide those social services would mean that there would have to be a service entity to take care of a very small proportion of a small village population. Or we got into it as I recall in headstart where there was apparently a decision that one or two children could not receive-could not participate in a headstart program because they were not BIA beneficiaries. The net effect of that was that we had to come up with a program again under State law, financed federally subsidized, to provide a second headstart program where the group would be so small that it would not be, you know, an operable program.

I do think we have to watch out for rigid definitions. I'm glad to hear you're not being rigid, that-but I think that determination ought to be somewhat cost oriented as to the nonbeneficiary population. Could that population reasonably be served by any other entity of government if they're excluded? If they could not, they ought to be included in terms of-and find a way to impact the financial side of it through State funds or Federal funds from other sources. I have no further questions.

Commissioner BORBRIDGE. A quick question here. Clay, are there any problems encountered, the recognition being extended to IRA form of government as opposed to traditional village, or has that always worked out to the acceptance of the village?

Mr. ANTIOQUIA. We've pretty widely spread the form of equality I described. And we have not had a major-or any opposition to that part as far as I'm aware.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you, sir. Thank you, John Paul. I'd like to call Eddie Hoffman who is now come into the audience. Mr. Hoffman, would you grace us with your testimony?

STATEMENT OF EDWARD HOFFMAN, SR., PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF VILLAGE COUNCIL PRESIDENTS, BETHEL, ALASKA

Mr. HOFFMAN. I have a statement here, and when I get through with it I'd like to talk about the BIA, what they're doing to the villages.

My name is Edward Hoffman, Sr., and I am president of the Association of Village Council Presidents, an organization that was formed by the 57 villages on the Yukon-Kuskokwim Delta in 1959. The members of the association are all village council presidents duly elected by their villages. This is the only body in this region with quasi-governmental powers. The AVCP was formed to work for the successful conclusion of the land claims issue, and just as importantly to strengthen the political standing of the region which prior to this time was nil. The AVCP during the years of working on the land claims was recognized by the Federal Government as representing all Yupik Eskimos in this region. The AVCP is also recognized by the villages in this region as a tribal governmental organization.

No. 1, the tribe in the Yukon-Kuskokwim Delta is the Yupik Eskimo. We have the same language, the same heritage, the same history, the same leadership. We also have the same problems of poverty, poor health, political abuse, and so forth.

No. 2, the regional corporation cannot be looked upon as a tribal governing body as its function is one of business and land management. It is the business arm of the AVCP.

No. 3, the village corporations cannot be looked upon as tribes as they are formed for business and land management.

No. 4, a village should not be considered a tribe unto itself as it is only one group in the Yupik Eskimo tribe and cannot determine for all villages issues of importance to every village. And in this region, what happens in one village, what happens to one Yupik Eskimo will no doubt affect each and every other village and each and every Yupik Eskimo.

No. 5, if every individual village were considered a tribe the ability of the Yupik people to effectively work on their problems will be greatly reduced. The political strength of the Yupik people will be reduced intensively. And it will take the people of this region 53 years to even begin to address urgent problems which need tribal attention now.

No. 6, the Association of Village Council Presidents is the tribal governing body. It must remain the tribal governing body if we as a people are to continue effectively addressing and solving our cultural, social, physical, and political problems. For purposes of dealing with Yupik tribal issues, the AVCP represents all Yupiks. In dealing with the Federal Government, as it did during the land claims fight, the AVCP represents all Yupik Eskimos.

No. 7, the fact that the AVCP is the tribal governing body does not in any way hamper the activities of the second class cities in each community. Their function is not exclusively for Yupik, cannot be exclusively for the Yupik as a city organized under the State of Alaska laws cannot be discriminatory in nature. At this time only the second class cities are the main functioning governmental bodies

in the villages. The AVCP does not represent second class cities. It represents the Yupik Eskimos in the whole region in matters affecting their livelihood, be it political, social, or cultural.

No. 8, the Federal Government must not fragment the unity of the Yupik Eskimo. The Federal Government should not interfere with the inner workings of a tribe. It should only recognize, and it should recognize that the Yupik people are one tribe and in order to be strong, they must remain united. The AVCP represents all Yupik Eskimos. It is the tribal governing body of this region.

With these points in mind, it is the recommendation of the AVCP that the Congress of the United States recognize the Association of Village Council Presidents as the tribal governing body, as they did during the Native land claims.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you, Edward. Do you want to make a point or two with respect to the BIA, too?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes; I was listening this morning on the radio when I was delivering oil, you know, and somebody, I think Mr. Three Stars, he was talking that he was helping out the villages.

To my knowledge, I don't think the BIA here is doing very much good for the villages. Instead they should be helping them, you know. They do all the villages come to get their support from BIA and some of them got no-there's no action coming out of them. And if Mr. Three Stars is here I wish he would answer that question for me. Senator GRAVEL. Eddie, I would rather not make the situation a confrontation situation as we are pressed for time, because we have to complete our testimony by 11 o'clock and I've got three other people to hear.

I think we get the message and we're the ones that will be making the decision for the comment that you just made and realize the importance of it and the emotion behind it. And so I think we'll let that one charge there, I'll not require any rebuttal since we'll be addressing that as we go forward.

Senator STEVENS. Yes; but we could ask for some documentation for the record of what type of assistance has been sought that has not been forthcoming. Eddie, you could get your people to send us some documentation on that?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes. [Not received.]

Senator GRAVEL. I think that would be-in fact that would be more valuable if you could deal with it in specifics and say that this village at that point in time had this meeting, requested that and then nothing came of it.

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes; they can.

Senator GRAVEL. If you could give us a couple, quote, "horror stories," it might be real helpful to us to focus on where the problem is in this regard. Could that be done?

Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes; that could be done.

Senator GRAVEL. I appreciate that. Thank you. Senator Stevens, do you have any questions? I have none.

Senator STEVENS. No; I don't have any questions.

Senator GRAVEL. Jimmy Endever wanted to speak in place of Paul Kiyunga. We have-I have two other witnesses, Joseph Bruno and Robert Jackson. And we do have a problem that we want to try and make our charter to Fairbanks in about 10 minutes, so I wonder if I

might just restrict each individual to 3 minutes. I realize it's unfair coming at the end like this, but we have no control over our time and we try to get equally to all areas. So we'll just put a time limit of 3 minutes for the next three persons giving testimony.

STATEMENT OF JIMMY ENDEVER, YUPIKTUK BISTA, INC.

Mr. ENDEVER. Thank you Senator Gravel.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you.

Mr. ENDEVER. If we have no time, I-since we have no time, ISenator GRAVEL. That's OK, I'll follow along and you go ahead and give your testimony.

Mr. ENDEVER. Since the president of the Lower Kuskokwim Village Corporation was not present in this hearing, I really appreciate that he works for the corporation. The corporation was formed, consisting of four villages and population estimated around 900 and it formed on the nonprofit corporation. And, I would like to recommend that it be recognized as a tribal organization on the subregion. To be recognized in that.

Since we had a workshop on the self determination yesterday, there was three workers from different villages. It seems that we decided to talk with their people to get together and to have that 93-628 (sec. 104) planning grant.

Since I have no time, I really recommend that you recognize that corporation as a tribal organization under the Self Determination Act. Senator GRAVEL. Is that the AVCP corporation you mean?

Mr. ENDEVER. That's what they call the Lower Kuskokwin Village Corporation, which only consists of four villages.

Senator GRAVEL. Four villages. And, your recommendation is that that be the contracting agent or defined under as a tribe for these purposes?

Mr. ENDEVER. Yes.

Senator GRAVEL. That's consistent with the other testimony. I have no questions. Senator Stevens?

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you very much, Jimmie. Joseph Bruno representing the United Villages? Joseph?

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH BRUNO, REPRESENTING THE UNITED

VILLAGES

Mr. BRUNO. I think United Villages would still like to have their own contract from the BIA or some other organization as far as I know, but I'm not sure right now, see, what they have to say. At Tooksik Bay we still have contracts from BIA. We have our own bookkeepers and everything like that. We handle the whole thing. The only problem we have is that the reimbursements when we have to pay from the city when we can't get the money.

That's all I have to say.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you. How many villages do you have?
Mr. BRUNO. Well, there's about five villages right now.

Senator GRAVEL. What are the names of them? Tooksik and? Mr. BRUNO. Tooksik, Tyonek, Neotuk, Nagvent, and Chefornak. Senator GRAVEL. Very good.

Commissioner BORBRIDGE. I might comment, I'm sure that the reporter has all of those names.

Senator GRAVEL. Unfortunately our time is up and we do have to fly to hold a hearing to also listen to the problems of the people in the Fairbanks area, and so I would like to thank you very much for testifying, and state that we're very grateful to the entire community and the quality of testimony that we've received, and declare these meetings adjourned. Sorry that we can't stay longer, those are just the restrictions of the unfortunate very fast life that we have to lead. I know speaking for Senator Stevens, Commissioner Borbridge, and myself, that we would like to stay here longer, but it's just impossible.

Senator STEVENS. And, anybody that has views, there's 30 days as Senator Gravel said, we will keep the record open and you can write to any one of the three of us and we'll see that the statements get in the record. Thank you all very much.

Senator GRAVEL. Thank you.

Commissioner BORBRIDGE. Thank you.
Senator GRAVEL. The hearing is recessed.

[The hearing was recessed, to reconvene the same day, at the City Hall, Fairbanks, Alaska.]