of, I think, a little over $5 or $6 per pupil, there is reason to ask questions.

That is one item only. There are other costs of operation. I would like to leave this with you; this shows the average daily cost per pupil of the various and sundry items that go to make up school costs. Mr. McCowEN. Is there only one copy of that?

Mr. Howe. I would be glad to furnish more.

Mr. McCOWEN. We will be glad to have it.

(The information is on file with the committee.)

Mr. Howe. Also listed in here are these permissive tax bills that permit taxes to be levied.

Mr. McCOWEN. Mr. Gwinn.

Mr. GWINN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call attention for the record, and to our colleague Mr. Brehm that we had substantially the same type of testimony which Mr. Howe has given, from Mr. Steve Stahl, of Arkansas.

Arkansas is admittedly in second position to Mississippi, as having had, up until recently, the poorest showing in education, and allegedly the poorest showing in ability to pay.

Strangely enough, when the State got to work on its job, and found that they had a lot of little 10-pupil schoolhouses scattered all over the hills and valleys, and a lot of duplicating business with busses running between the schools, and other ways of inefficiency, and when they consolidated their schools and did away with the duplicating business, and really put their house in order, they had enough money, and have today enough money to meet the minimum, and more than the minimum requirements for an educational program.

Mr. BREHM. I was unfortunate enough to miss Mr. Stahl's testimony that particular morning. I was in a meeting in town in the Interior Department of the Conservation of Wildlife Resources.

Mr. GWINN. I have an extra copy, and I will send you a copy of that.

I am not going to take time to to ask you questions, Mr. Howe, but such work as the private citizens are doing in such associations as yours in New York, and in Arkansas, and Oklahoma, I think gives this committee some hope that the States are going to work out their own problems, as you indicate your faith that they are able to do, if they have the will to do it.

Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Howe. That certainly is.

Mr. GWINN. I have nothing more, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BREHM. I would like to make one statement, either on the record or off. It does not make a bit of difference to me, but in last night's paper I noticed where an article said that some influential or important party member, referring to the Republican Party, had issued a statement to some reporters that the Education and Labor Committee members had been instructed by our leadership to kill this bill in committee.

Now, speaking as one individual, I want to say that no leader of our party has spoken to me along those lines, and it wouldn't do him one bit of good to speak to me if they did decide to do it, because I would hate to think that we are coming up here morning after morning and week after week, holding these hearings, just as a sham and a show,. and I, for one, assure you that is not a fact. I do not know why this

gentleman refused to have his name used. I think that anyone issuing a statement of that kind should permit his name to be used.

I just want to say that I, for one, intend to listen to both sides of this testimony, to study it to the best of my ability and devote my best conscience and judgment to what tells me is the best interest of America, and that no party leader need waste his time telling me how to vote on that.

Mr. GWINN. I think, in that connection, Mr. Chairman, if I may say so, the fact that you and I have been here, I think every day without exception, would indicate that we did not expect to be wasting our time.

Mr. McCOWEN. That is right.

In the New York Times today-I suppose all of this ought to go in the record?

Mr. BREHM. Yes.

Mr. McCOWEN. I think all off this ought to be off the record.

I have not much to say, and do not want to take my colleague's time. I might say that if all of the States in the Union were in as good shape as the State of New York, had the amount of wealth, I doubt if there would be any effort made for Federal aid for education bills at all. There would probably be but very little hard need for it, if all States were as wealthy in proportion to their school responsibilities as New York. We are proud of the fact that New York State is such a great State, and so strong financially.

Of course, we think they ought to be willing to share a little of that with the weaker States for the good of the schools from the standpoint of the general welfare.

Of course, we do know, and no one can successfully contradict this statement, that children have to be educated where they are, and wealth has to be taxed where it is.

It can be argued, of course, as to how wide a territory should be covered by the statement. The time was when it was confined strictly to a little one-room school area. Gradually, it came to where it became township-wide, and later it went in many States, county-wide, and finally to State, county, and local, or State and local. That is very general now.

Of course, the question now is, subject to debate, of course, as to whether it should go to the Federal Government.

Of course, in reference to the good statement Mr. Stahl made, he did make a good statement from his point of view, but he himself said that he was just representing himself.

Mr. GWINN. Will the gentleman yield on that point?

Mr. McCOWEN. Certainly.

Mr. GWINN. I think he was here as a representative of the council. Mr. McCOWEN. No, we brought that our clearly. Your testimony will show that he used to be associated with them, but not now, and that he spoke strictly from a personal standpoint.

Mr. GWINN. I see.

Mr. McCOWEN. And if I am wrong in that, I would want you to call my attention to it, but I think I am right.

You made the statement that education never has been regarded as the Federal responsibility, and naturally, of course, I think you mean Nation-wide, as proposed in current Federal-aid bills.

The statement left without the interpretation, which, you know would not be correct, because the statement is all-inclusive, while the facts are not in conformance thereto. There have been probably 150 Federal aid for education bills in the history of our country. Some of them did have a little too much Federal control to suit a lot of us, and Federal aid is being given right now to the GI's under the GI bill of rights for education, and it is also being given to several types of vocational work. So I am sure you meant, as I said in the beginning, these kinds of bills.

I also say that the apparent ease with which Congress passes tremendous sums of money in the amounts they do to be sent abroad for various purposes, to me is not quite consistent with the idea of cutting all domestic improvements, all internal improvements, and not even providing funds in some instances to finance the finishing of works that are well under way, and which if not completed, certainly would mean a waste of large amounts of money already put in. So I believe that our Congress could do well now to start to try to make America strong. Instead of that, it looks to me like we are cutting so many funds that ought not to be cut, some of them ought to be. We are all for cutting out waste and needless expenditure, but instead of cutting out very important things for the internal welfare of our country, to help America become strong, I cannot see the consistency there between that and this foreign affair procedure.

We may have to fight another war, and it looks to me like we had better be getting good and strong from now on internally to be ready financially. We are sending all kinds of critical matériel and other matériel that are depleting our own natural resources abroad. And I would like to see our country try to get some of it back.

Mr. BREHM. Does the chairman happen to remember the exact number of boys who were refused enlistment in the Army because of lack of education?

Mr. McCOWEN. I am not sure, but wasn't that over 400,000?
Mr. GWINN. I do not know what the figures were.

Mr. McCOWEN. It was a very large number.

Now, I think you would agree with me-I am not going to take the times-but I compliment you on a very fine statement from your point of view, and it does have many real facts, whether I like them or not. Yet, a good many of your statements which are purported as forceful conclusions are almost assumptions, and a good many of them are assumptions in your statement.

Others, I think, are based on an entirely insufficient number of facts to warrant a real valid and logical conclusion. If you check this over, you probably know that now, and if you check it over, you will probably agree with me.

Mr. Howe. If you will give me the time, I can take this presentation all apart, and I think I can show you some pretty interesting information.

Mr. McCOWEN. You cannot sell me some of those statements, because I do not believe them.

Mr. Howe. That is a privilege we both enjoy. I want to pay a compliment to you on your very fine opinions, and while I do not agree with everything you have said, I do respect your opinions. While you refer to the wealth in New York State, we are not one single bit happier than some of these States that you refer to on

the other side. If stomach ulcers are any measure of success, I think I would rather go over to the other side.

Mr. McCOWEN. That could very well be true.
Thank you very much for your appearance.
We stand adjourned until 10 a. m., Tuesday.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10

a. m. Tuesday, May 20, 1947.)